Zimmerman/Martin Case

[franklin]

Why not just let them leave and call the cops? That's what the cops are for. You fighting the guy is just unnecessary and pointless vigilantism. One of you will get hurt and you still may not get your DVD player.

I have rational discussions with criminals all the time. I work with a committee to disarm all prison guards and pass out pamphlets explaining to the inmates the importance of peace. I don't get why these violent Americans have to use guns to protect against criminals without first attempting rational persuasion.

 

[JimLes]

First, the cops are not going to investigate the burglary of a DVD player.

Because, shockingly, they also don't think a DVD player to be very valuable. Certainly not worth getting into physical altercations with someone.

Second, I don't have to allow people to take my things. Why do you think I do?

Because it's going to escalate. Do you figure a thief will simply give you your DVD back when confronted? Or they won't hit back if hit?

 

[Gameface]

Why not just let them leave and call the cops? That's what the cops are for. You fighting the guy is just unnecessary and pointless vigilantism. One of you will get hurt and you still may not get your DVD player.

Do you acknowledge that the burglar is the one initiating force against me?

Let's explore a hypothetical.

Guy knocks on your front door. You and your family are in the living room watching TV. You answer the door, the guy says he's there to take your TV and possibly some other things he finds if he's interested in them. You then, not waiting a confrontation and not being a vigilante let him in. He's having a little trouble disconnecting the cables so he tells you to get over there and unhook them or he'll cut them loose. You go over and remove all the wires for him. On his way out he sees an expensive urn that holds the remains of your mother. Tells you his arms are full and says that you need to carry it out to his car for him. You're a little hesitant, those remains mean a lot to you and the rest of your family. You tell him he can't have the urn. He says if you don't bring the urn he's going to kick your daughter in the face. Well, we don't want violence so there's nothing to do but take the urn out to his car for him.

Do I have your ideal response to a robbery correct, or at some point would it have been okay to resist him?

 

[Scat]

Regardless of legal issues, what is really morally repugnant about this situation is that it's part of a larger narrative where private property is acquiring more value than human life. Even if Trayvon Martin was a burglar and even if he was looking to steal, do you have the moral right to go shoot him? And let's be honest, you take a gun with you, you're considering shooting someone. Unless you actually believe someone is a threat to your person, what business do you have playing vigilante? I see someone I think has stolen or is about to steal something, I call the police. I don't go looking to shoot them because I think my freaking hub caps are worth more than his life.

Keep in mind that the trigger was not pulled until a person was physically assaulted. This whole situation could have gone the other direction had a gun not been in play. I wonder what everyone's take would be if Zimmerman didn't have a gun and got his head bashed in to the point where he was comatose or dead because he confronted Martin?

 

[JimLes]

Do I have your ideal response to a robbery correct, or at some point would it have been okay to resist him?

You might find this shocking, but there are people out there who don't believe that violence is the answer to anything. They're not all Amish or hippies, either. I would categorically say that I would not take another life under any circumstances. Not even in self-defense. I don't know if I'd go as far as say that I would not use any violence ever, but I would say that I would keep my opposition to killing in mind before I get involved in any violent situation.

But this isn't about that. This is about whether or not you believe that your paramount duty is to protect your material possession or preserve human life. It's pretty clear from the story that Zimmerman believed the former to be true. I find that depressing.

 

[JimLes]

I wonder what everyone's take would be if Zimmerman didn't have a gun and got his head bashed in to the point where he was comatose or dead because he confronted Martin?

That would, of course, be a whole different story, though I'd still ask why Zimmerman felt the need to confront someone he thought "suspicious" instead of calling the cops.

 

[franklin]

You might find this shocking, but there are people out there who don't believe that violence is the answer to anything. They're not all Amish or hippies, either. I would categorically say that I would not take another life under any circumstances. Not even in self-defense. I don't know if I'd go as far as say that I would not use any violence ever, but I would say that I would keep my opposition to killing in mind before I get involved in any violent situation.

But this isn't about that. This is about whether or not you believe that your paramount duty is to protect your material possession or preserve human life. It's pretty clear from the story that Zimmerman believed the former to be true. I find that depressing.

You know, you're really lucky Gameface is such a badass who would use physical force to restrict this person as his first option. Most Americans are chicken **** wannabe cowboys who would shoot the person on the spot and worry later if he was with a gang of meth heads who would assault his family while Gameface is busy rolling around with the good chap.

I say you just get out of the way of these criminals gangs because the majority of them have no intentions of raping your daughter who they are standing between you and her room. They also don't want to be seen and will never incite violence when you catch them in their act of burglary. It's best you just hide under your bed until they are gone.

Do you realize yet how absurd you sound?

 

[One Brow]

I wonder what everyone's take would be if Zimmerman didn't have a gun and got his head bashed in to the point where he was comatose or dead because he confronted Martin?

Depending on the circumstances and what would have come out, Martin may have been able to claim self-defense. I don't think he would be at fault, regardfless.

That would, of course, be a whole different story, though I'd still ask why Zimmerman felt the need to confront someone he thought "suspicious" instead of calling the cops.

Zimmerman did call the cops. The cops told Zimmerman that there was no need to follow Martin. Zimmerman followed Martin anyhow.

 

[One Brow]

You know, you're really lucky Gameface is such a badass who would use physical force to restrict this person as his first option. Most Americans are chicken **** wannabe cowboys who would shoot the person on the spot and worry later if he was with a gang of meth heads who would assault his family while Gameface is busy rolling around with the good chap.

I say you just get out of the way of these criminals gangs because the majority of them have no intentions of raping your daughter who they are standing between you and her room. They also don't want to be seen and will never incite violence when you catch them in their act of burglary. It's best you just hide under your bed until they are gone.

Do you realize yet how absurd you sound?

Yeah, bringing in that meth-head gang was so reasonable, by comparison.

 

[JimLes]

Zimmerman did call the cops. The cops told Zimmerman that there was no need to follow Martin. Zimmerman followed Martin anyhow.

I was talking about the hypothetical scenario where he doesn't get the gun, but yeah, I guess we should assume that everything else happened the same way before.

Of course, race already is a huge part of this story, so it still would be had Martin pummeled him. Most of the stuff surrounding this story is spin, anyway.

 

[Scat]

That would, of course, be a whole different story, though I'd still ask why Zimmerman felt the need to confront someone he thought "suspicious" instead of calling the cops.

The cops had been called numerous times prior to this night's events with no positive results. Zimmerman's experience was that the cops never arrived until after the suspect(s) escaped.

Again, the gun was not discharged until Zimmerman was physically assaulted.

 

[JimLes]

I say you just get out of the way of these criminals gangs because the majority of them have no intentions of raping your daughter who they are standing between you and her room. They also don't want to be seen and will never incite violence when you catch them in their act of burglary. It's best you just hide under your bed until they are gone.

I'd be very sad if the world I lived in was anything like the world you imagine us all living in.