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10 Years Ago today.....

mellow

mellow

Well-Known Member
In locker room clean-out 2 days after getting beat in game 5 in Sacramento John Stockton abruptly said good-bye.

Karl signed with the Lakers later that summer.

Since then the Jazz have started 13 pgs.

Kurt Kragthorpe had a great write up about it in Yesterday's SLTribune: https://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/jazz/56245140-87/jazz-malone-stockton-john.html.csp

[video=youtube_share;NQ6bKHMPZh0]https://youtu.be/NQ6bKHMPZh0


Games started by Jazz point guards over the past 10 seasons:

Deron Williams --- 399
Carlos Arroyo --- 87
Devin Harris --- 79
Keith McLeod --- 71
Mo Williams --- 46
Jamaal Tinsley --- 33
Raul Lopez --- 26
Earl Watson --- 19
Milt Palacio --- 18
Ronnie Price --- 18
Randy Livingston --- 3
Derek Fisher --- 2
Eric Maynor --- 2
Howard Eisley --- 1
 
mellow said:
In locker room clean-out 2 days after getting beat in game 5 in Sacramento John Stockton abruptly said good-bye.

Karl signed with the Lakers later that summer.

Since then the Jazz have started 13 pgs.

Kurt Kragthorpe had a great write up about it in Yesterday's SLTribune: https://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/jazz/56245140-87/jazz-malone-stockton-john.html.csp

[video=youtube_share;NQ6bKHMPZh0]https://youtu.be/NQ6bKHMPZh0


Games started by Jazz point guards over the past 10 seasons:

Deron Williams --- 399
Carlos Arroyo --- 87
Devin Harris --- 79
Keith McLeod --- 71
Mo Williams --- 46
Jamaal Tinsley --- 33
Raul Lopez --- 26
Earl Watson --- 19
Milt Palacio --- 18
Ronnie Price --- 18
Randy Livingston --- 3
Derek Fisher --- 2
Eric Maynor --- 2
Howard Eisley --- 1
Click to expand...

Hart didn't start any games?
I guess it could be worse
 
homeytennis said:
The travesty is the number of games McBrick started.
Click to expand...

Keith McLeod 19-13 as a starter in 2005-06


-----------------------------------------------

Jazz went 5-1 in 2004-05 with McLeod starting before Sloan replaced him with Carlos Arroyo
Jazz go 21-55 after Sloan destroys McLeod's confidence.

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Keith McLeod: 63 steals in 1382 mins
Carlos Arroyo : 20 steals in 742 mins

McLeod >>>>> Arroyo

------------------------------------------

Coach
 
MoTown16 said:
Keith McLeod 19-13 as a starter in 2005-06


-----------------------------------------------

Jazz went 5-1 in 2004-05 with McLeod starting before Sloan replaced him with Carlos Arroyo
Jazz go 21-55 after Sloan destroys McLeod's confidence.

--------------------------------------------------

Keith McLeod: 63 steals in 1382 mins
Carlos Arroyo : 20 steals in 742 mins

McLeod >>>>> Arroyo

------------------------------------------

Coach
Click to expand...

you forgot the :grouphug:
 
^^^
Old-timers will get the humor. I really miss Coach. Outside of AKMVP, I don't think any one poster was more dedicated to "his" guy than Coach was to McLeod.
 
That article is pretty stupid. They act like we haven't had much success since Stockton and Malone. We actually had a pretty damn good team for a few years. There will never be another Stockton and Malone for the Jazz, or a Jordan for the Bulls, or a Bird for the Celtics. When a Hall of Famer or in our case two Hall of Famers leave, the teams take years and years to rebuild. We actually got pretty lucky with the Dwill and Boozer years.

As a fan I can't complain. We have had it really good for all my life.
 
Can you imagine what might have happened had the Jazz signed Tony Parker instead of Rahul Lopez? Stockton may have stayed on a little longer, playing fewer minutes as Parker developed. With Parker here, Malone may have stayed and retired as a Jazz player. We would have had the point guard to transition the post Stockton and Malone Jazz. And the Spurs wouldn't have had Parker.
 
Right, what is missing here is LTV to tell us how he really feels about KOC...
 
Beantown said:
That article is pretty stupid. They act like we haven't had much success since Stockton and Malone. We actually had a pretty damn good team for a few years. There will never be another Stockton and Malone for the Jazz, or a Jordan for the Bulls, or a Bird for the Celtics. When a Hall of Famer or in our case two Hall of Famers leave, the teams take years and years to rebuild. We actually got pretty lucky with the Dwill and Boozer years.

As a fan I can't complain. We have had it really good for all my life.
Click to expand...

The problem with that success is that we couldn't sustain it. It was pretty much a two-year window between 2007 and 2008 where the Jazz were a legitimate playoff threat. So, it's easy to gloss over because it led to nowhere - we're now at the same level we were just after Stockton retiring (no playoffs and a questionable future). I think that's what is so disconcerting. I mean, we praise KOC for the quick rebuild - but what the hell did it get Utah? Basically, it was one really good season and it was only good because Golden State upset the Mavs in the first round, paving the way for Utah to slide on in to the WCF - where they lost to San Antonio 4-1. Sure, I suspect the Jazz would've given Dallas a helluva series (maybe even gone 7 games) had they knocked off the Warriors, but I don't think we make the Western Finals that year without a little help.

At the end of the day, though, the rebuild netted Utah pretty much nothing sustainable. Sure, '07 was a great memory ... but that's about all it was. It didn't act as a launching pad to sustained success like the '92 WCF did against Portland and it fizzled so quickly that its lasting impact on the franchise can hardly be suggested as all that positive. To me, this is a reminder of how fast things collapsed as a franchise.

So, while we lucked out early with Boozer and Williams, it led us nowhere and while I hesitate to say we're worse for the experiment, I doubt anyone thought this was in the cards when the Jazz lost to the Spurs on '07.
 
Sean said:
The problem with that success is that we couldn't sustain it. It was pretty much a two-year window between 2007 and 2008 where the Jazz were a legitimate playoff threat. So, it's easy to gloss over because it led to nowhere - we're now at the same level we were just after Stockton retiring (no playoffs and a questionable future). I think that's what is so disconcerting. I mean, we praise KOC for the quick rebuild - but what the hell did it get Utah? Basically, it was one really good season and it was only good because Golden State upset the Mavs in the first round, paving the way for Utah to slide on in to the WCF - where they lost to San Antonio 4-1. Sure, I suspect the Jazz would've given Dallas a helluva series (maybe even gone 7 games) had they knocked off the Warriors, but I don't think we make the Western Finals that year without a little help.

At the end of the day, though, the rebuild netted Utah pretty much nothing sustainable. Sure, '07 was a great memory ... but that's about all it was. It didn't act as a launching pad to sustained success like the '92 WCF did against Portland and it fizzled so quickly that its lasting impact on the franchise can hardly be suggested as all that positive. To me, this is a reminder of how fast things collapsed as a franchise.

So, while we lucked out early with Boozer and Williams, it led us nowhere and while I hesitate to say we're worse for the experiment, I doubt anyone thought this was in the cards when the Jazz lost to the Spurs on '07.
Click to expand...
I think that's a bit short-sighted and overly critical of the amazing job KOC did in rebuilding the team without actually going through a rebuild. Jazz had all the ingredients to be a contender for many years. They had a well-balanced team, with only a weakness at SG, which I'm sure could have been addressed. But AK went EMO on us, Boozer wouldn't play defense and there were always untimely injuries to AK, Carlos and Memo. Could we have gotten past the Spurs or Lakers? I don't know. It was a similar situation to Stockton/Malone never getting past the Bulls or Olajuwon-led Rockets. Once it became apparent neither AK nor Carlos had the intestinal fortitude to be team leaders, KOC committed to having Deron be the main building block of the team. But Deron wouldn't commit to Utah. And KOC was faced with either HOPING Deron would re-sign and possibly losing him for nothing or trading him for assets. It takes time to off-load salaries...unless you're happy trading for high-risk players who have underperformed or had problems elsewhere. Utah is FINALLY free of most long-term contracts. Only Marvin's remains and it's not a big deal for just one more season. Am I disappointed KOC didn't sign better FA's or make better trades? Certainly. I thought Marvin, Mo and Randy were very good acquisitions at the time. Am I disappointed Millsap and Jefferson weren't dealt? Yes. But we don't know what was offered. If trades could only be made by including one of young players or by taking back a bad contract, then I'm ok with what happened.
 
None of that changes the fact Utah was only legitimately a western threat for two years. That was the extent of KOC's rebuild - a two-year window between 2007 and 2008. By 2009, the franchise slumped to 8th in the West and in 2010, only got anywhere because they went up against a Denver franchise that, even today, still hasn't figured out how to win consistently, and solidly enough, to get out of the first round.

That's my problem. We rebuilt into a team that peaked rather impressively, but so quickly that there was nothing really sustained. 2007 proved an anomaly and 2008 was the last year I really remember thinking the Jazz had a shot at doing anything in the playoffs. But after that season, everything kinda just started falling apart and when the playoffs rolled around, in both 2009 and 2010, no one anticipated any kind of run - even if Utah surprised against Denver in '10.

Everything else you mentioned is conjecture. We don't know how this next rebuild will work out and if, in five years, we're still playoff-less, I think we'll look back at the post-Stockton & Malone era as pretty much a failure. If they bounce back, and build a consistently solid franchise that is actually competing, then I'll change my tune - but I haven't felt confident about Utah since the 2010 season and really confident about their chances of a deep playoff run since '08. Sooner or later, those brief seasons of success will be forgotten ... and then what?
 
^^^Just as Boston, LA and Chicago so quickly rebuilt themselves into contenders after Bird, Magic and Jordan left (NOT). It's truly remarkable KOC was able to assemble a winning team so rapidly. And he did this WITHOUT trading his superstars like many teams do as they age. I give KOC credit for seeing the talent that Memo and Boozer had, even though neither were utilized much by their teams. And he was smart enough to not let Carlos skip town to visit Denver. Can you imagine what Utah would have done with Kenyon Martin? I don't consider the post-Stockton/Malone era of the last 10 seasons to be a failure. In fact, that 42-40 team of "AK and the nobodies" was one of my favorites ever. We had a small window under Deron due to the players failing and/or injuries. Booz, AK, Memo and Deron could have been a core for many years. I agree, we don't know what the next rebuild will bring. But EVERY team faces that eventually. Some wallow in misery seemingly forever. Some go through several rough seasons before becoming competitive again. And some are even pushed along with the help of the league (Lakers getting Gasol, Clippers getting CP3). AT LEAST Utah has some hope. WE can see some very good young players that if not all-stars, might eventually come close. Jazz are in fantastic financial shape in terms of the cap and luxury tax. That's certainly more than can be said about many non-playoff teams - and even some that did make the playoffs this year.
 
Sean brings up some interesting ideas to think about. The team did rise faster and go further than people expected. Kudos to KOC, Larry, & Sloan. But the wheels fell off rather abruptly and ended very badly for the Jazz. Why? Where did it go wrong? Was Deron's attititude a ticking time-bomb, was Boozer incapable of being the man? Was AK and his contract the problem, and why didn't the Jazz move him? Did the Jazz invest too heavily in role players like Korver, Milsap, and Harpring? Did the early success fool the Jazz into believing they should keep the team together despite some obvious flaws and inbalances?

We could make a whole new thread about why the Deron/Boozer era Jazz fell apart. What else are we going to do until may 21st?

But bringing it back to the current rebuild, and the Jazz in a post Stockton era---Jazz managment and Fans shouldn't expect a guy to play in Utah for 18 seasons. In modern NBA Jazz will be lucky if they get 8 years out players. So how do you build a team through the draft knowing that?
 
MoTown16 said:
^^^Just as Boston, LA and Chicago so quickly rebuilt themselves into contenders after Bird, Magic and Jordan left (NOT). It's truly remarkable KOC was able to assemble a winning team so rapidly. And he did this WITHOUT trading his superstars like many teams do as they age. I give KOC credit for seeing the talent that Memo and Boozer had, even though neither were utilized much by their teams. And he was smart enough to not let Carlos skip town to visit Denver. Can you imagine what Utah would have done with Kenyon Martin? I don't consider the post-Stockton/Malone era of the last 10 seasons to be a failure. In fact, that 42-40 team of "AK and the nobodies" was one of my favorites ever. We had a small window under Deron due to the players failing and/or injuries. Booz, AK, Memo and Deron could have been a core for many years. I agree, we don't know what the next rebuild will bring. But EVERY team faces that eventually. Some wallow in misery seemingly forever. Some go through several rough seasons before becoming competitive again. And some are even pushed along with the help of the league (Lakers getting Gasol, Clippers getting CP3). AT LEAST Utah has some hope. WE can see some very good young players that if not all-stars, might eventually come close. Jazz are in fantastic financial shape in terms of the cap and luxury tax. That's certainly more than can be said about many non-playoff teams - and even some that did make the playoffs this year.
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None of that changes the fact our rebuild led to a window of just two years. Sure, you can point to a handful of teams that saw a slower rebuilding process - but does it ultimately matter how long it took if, at the end of the day, we're only looking at two seasons of success - and really, one where Utah made it out of the second round? I'd agree with your point if we were still winning, but that's not the case anymore. We're not winning - at least not at the level needed to be a playoff team.

So, it goes back to what the process led to. Good for us, we rebuilt quicker than expected ... and it netted us one really good playoff run that was proven an anomaly and we're back to square one. Had we at least sustained that success longer than just two seasons, like Phoenix did under Nash between 2005 and 2010, or Orlando with Howard, I'd be more inclined to talk fondly of that rebuild. But this wasn't the case. After '08, Utah slipped. It was a very noticeable slip. They went from winning the Northwest to the 8th spot and getting nearly swept by the Lakers. In '10, they bounced back a bit better, but even with that first-round series win over Denver, no one anticipated much of anything and it proved itself out when the Jazz was swept by the Lakers in the second round. Then, for the first time since 2006, Utah entirely missed the playoffs, only to return to 'em a year later, during a lockout shortened season, and got swept again.

The franchise rose very quickly, and I'll happily credit everyone involved for that - but again, what did it net us? A trip to the WCF on a fluke and what?

That's my point. Do we have hope? Maybe ... but again, that's all conjecture. What I do know is that this last rebuild stalled remarkably fast after a remarkably fast rise back to relevance. It felt like a flash in the pan type deal and I don't know if one could even call that a rebuild all things considered. '07 and '08 were good memories - but they were too short for me to consider that a really successful era for Utah Jazz basketball. It was temporary and led to nothing positive as everything blew up only a few short years later. It wasn't even long enough to enjoy - it felt over before it started. I hope the next rebuild doesn't last just two seasons and while I don't expect a rebuild to take us to the Finals, I do feel a successful rebuild means we're at least contending for a deep playoff run. Outside '07 and '08, Utah hasn't done that since the 1998 season.
 
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