Everyone is entitled to their opinion. However, I'm frightened of death so to me suicide doesn't seem cowardly.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion. However, I'm frightened of death so to me suicide doesn't seem cowardly.
JimLes
Well-Known Member
This is a big part of the problem when it comes to dealing with mental illness as a society. At some basic level, perhaps a subconscious one, many people refused to accept that mental illness is real and not something you can just snap out of because you want to. That's how you get morons like Hantlers, whose suggestion for a mentally ill, irrational person is to stop and rationally think about what they're doing. In other words, his solution to mental illness is that you should decide to stop being mentally ill. You can't help but feel that anyone who thinks this way deep down does not believe that there are such things as depression. That you can just decide to not be sad and that's it.
Tarkanian
Well-Known Member
what a loss.
another one bites the dust.
I'll miss him.
We are talking about an utterly and totally flawed decision-making, which stems from a sick perception of surroundings.
Robin Williams surely loved his kids. But I don't think he was in a position to take into consideration all these in a healthy manner, but rather concentrated on the bad sides of life.
Depressed individuals do that. They take one issue and make out of it a problem of existential significance, which in turn make them hate themselves or life.
Suicide or homicide look like the best solution sometimes but this decision-making cannot be attributed to that "person" in question, for it is not his real animus.
another one bites the dust.
I'll miss him.
the problem is, you are attributing some characteristics to a sick person, who is suffering too much to make sane decisions.
We are talking about an utterly and totally flawed decision-making, which stems from a sick perception of surroundings.
Robin Williams surely loved his kids. But I don't think he was in a position to take into consideration all these in a healthy manner, but rather concentrated on the bad sides of life.
Depressed individuals do that. They take one issue and make out of it a problem of existential significance, which in turn make them hate themselves or life.
Suicide or homicide look like the best solution sometimes but this decision-making cannot be attributed to that "person" in question, for it is not his real animus.
LogGrad98
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First, I thought you were being hyperbolic and that there was no way you were being serious.
Second, no one is encouraging suicide. I am attempting to get people to put themselves in the other person's shoes to maybe understand a tiny bit what they may be going through. That's all. Of course suicide is a terrible response to a terrible situation, but if you make an attempt to understand the disease then it makes it easier to understand, and out of understanding comes compassion and maybe the support necessary to help the person overcome.
3rd, what exactly does "coddling" mean in this context? Or enabling? See to me this encapsulates everything wrong with mental health care in this world. The stigma attached. It isn't a disease, right? It is just something you can "tough love" someone out of. They don't need care, they need an intervention, right? I mean come on, just think about it. They are just being stupid and not realizing how great life is, why don't they just snap out of it, count their blessings. Why don't they all just choose to be happy, like I did, right? Wow is that a myopic view. Dalamon hit the nail on the head. This is a disease as pervasive and destructive as cancer or aids or anything else that can destroy the body.
It is a disease worse than those, because there is no Dr. House to diagnose it and provide a miracle cure at the last second. It is often untreated due to attitudes like that, as the person tries desperately to "pull themselves up by their bootstraps" instead of seeking help. How much good would it do someone with cancer or aids to start doing extra situps every morning, with "friends" telling them to "snap out of it" and "be a man" and "I don't feel that way so you shouldn't choose to feel that way either"? And the worse part about depression is that often the underlying "causes" are never known, cannot be diagnosed, and can only be marginally treated. We are so far behind in this area it is terrifying. We are practically in the stone age compared to other medical advances. We have no way of knowing which chemicals are out of whack and need to be put in whack to help the person. So we try everything, literally, and if nothing works we try combinations of everything, and if that doesn't work we try whatever was the least ****ty, and that is what they often have to live with.
But all too often the words above are all anyone who is depressed hear about it, so they are shamed into not seeking treatment. Man up you estrogen-filled sack of crap!! How can you do this to your family? What the hell is wrong with you, are you a man or not? You just haven't embraced your religion. What kind of ***** hides behind "depression" to get out of doing ****? You sound like my grandpa. Well back in my day we ate **** every day and we liked it! And you will eat **** too or you aren't a real man!
Well the world isn't that cut and dried, and everyone doesn't think like you do, and that throwback attitude is just making a bad situation worse. God help anyone suffering from this anywhere near your personal circle. Get some education on the topic before spouting off next time, you sound like a ****ing banjo-playing backward redneck.
Coddling my ***.
Are you asking me to sword fight?
If (as I heard, and I cannot confirm it) he suffered from lifelong depression, then I want you to imagine fighting against the impulse to do yourself in EVERY DAY. Do that for 50 years (let's assume it started in adolescence, which is a reasonable assumption) and tell me how cowardly it is to finally give in.
LogGrad98
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I never asked to feel this way. I spent OVER TEN ****ING YEARS hearing from EVERYONE how I just needed to snap out of it. I couldn't understand why I constantly felt like **** after my cancer treatment was over. I thought life should continue just as before, right? I had been the life of the party, always the one to welcome people to the group. I loved to be around people. My wife was drawn to that, it is what pulled us together in the first place really. Now I was more often than not sullen, I didn't want to be around anyone, I wanted to sit by myself in a corner or not go. I couldn't shake the feelings of dread, and I hated myself for it. And ALL I ****ING GOT FROM ANYONE WAS SNAP OUT OF IT, WHAT THE **** IS WRONG WITH YOU, YOU AREN'T THE MAN I MARRIED ANYMORE, LOOK WHAT YOU ARE DOING TO YOUR KIDS, HOW CAN YOU BE SO SELFISH TO ALWAYS DO WHAT YOU WANT AND NOT BE THERE FOR YOUR FAMILY, WHAT KIND OF A PIECE OF **** ARE YOU THAT YOU CAN'T JUST SNAP OUT OF IT, YOUR KIDS NEED YOU, WHY ARE YOU SUCH A BAD FATHER, WHY ARE YOU CHOOSING TO DISCONNECT FROM LIFE, CAN'T YOU SEE THE GIGANTIC MIRACLE GOD HAS WROUGHT GETTING YOU THROUGH CANCER, BE A MAN...BE A ****ING MAN!!!
WELL YOU KNOW WHAT, THAT NEVER HELPS, IT NEVER HELPS AT ALL. THAT IS THE ********. THE ******** IS THAT WE ARE SO POISONED AGAINST SHOWING ANY KIND OF WEAKNESS THAT WE GET SHAMED INTO THINKING IT IS ALL US, IT IS OUR CHOICES, IT IS OUR FAILINGS THAT MAKE US LIKE THIS. BY MY PARENTS, MY WIFE, THE CHURCH LEADERS I TURNED TO FOR HELP, EVEN MY BEST FRIEND SAT THERE AND SAID "HEY JUST SNAP OUT OF IT, BE A MAN!!"
BY GOD I DARE ANYONE WHO IS NOT A MAN TO GO THROUGH THIS FOR THE BETTER PART OF 2 DECADES WITHOUT KILLING THEMSELVES. IT TAKES MORE THAN A MAN TO FIGHT THROUGH IT EVERY SINGLE MINUTE OF EVERY SINGLE DAY!!! IF YOU HAVEN'T BEEN THERE AND YOU CANNOT KNOW WHAT IT IS LIKE THEN SHUT THE **** UP...AND LISTEN!! JUST STOP TALKING AND LISTEN TO THE PERSON.
I finally had someone listen to me. We had moved around and finally made it back to Utah. I had attempted suicide twice in that time frame, believing WITH ALL MY SOUL THAT IT WAS DOING MY FAMILY...MY KIDS...A HUGE FAVOR. GET OUT OF THEIR LIVES, SET THEM FREE. We started going back to a doctor that I had always connected with. He listened to whatever it was I had gone to him about, then just put his hand on my leg and looked into my eyes and asked "but how are you?" I broke down then and there and felt like a total ***** for doing it. I still feel somewhat ashamed. I told him everything I had been feeling, and that I couldn't understand why I felt that way, and how it and what everyone was telling me made me feel about myself. We talked and he walked me through the first assessment I had taken, and told me I was suffering from clinical depression. After a few more visits with him and a couple other doctors, among them a neurologist and a psychiatrist, I was diagnosed with a form of post-traumatic stress syndrome. The same thing guys have coming home from war. It occurs in patients who had dealt with a serious physical trauma (cancer is a common trigger) in which the body more or less reconfigures the brain chemistry to help the mind cope with an uncopeable (is that a word?) situation, and sometimes the brain cannot bounce back, the chemicals stay out of whack even though the trigger is gone, and long-term severe depression is often the result.
After nearly 8 years of my family's life I finally started getting help. Most of my children's childhood they had to deal with a dad like me, and I will never get those years back. Oh I wasn't abusive, but depression makes itself known. I was hyper-critical, didn't want to spend time with my kids, I was quick to anger, and slow to apologize, I was suffering and in some ways took it out on my family. That is where the "how can you do this to your family" bit comes in I guess.
Now I have been in treatment for about 6 years, and I have come to terms, mostly, with the fact that I will likely never get on top of this. To date I have tried 14 different medications all with varying effects, none that really every worked. The most I can hope for, I fear, is to feel kind of ok sometimes. But that is better than the alternative. Not long after I quit Jazzfanz a while back I went through an experience trying to help someone very very dear to me get through her own bout with depression, and I was on the phone with her trying to talk her down when she decided to end her life. I was already in a low point and it put me into a tailspin and I made another attempt on my own life.
I'm doing ok now. I go through periods of severe relapse, following by adjusting meds or trying new ones, and then I get back to ok. But I can live with ok.
I guess I needed to share, I don't know why I put all this out there, but there it is.
If you know anyone you have ever told to just "snap out of it" please try to help them get help.
WELL YOU KNOW WHAT, THAT NEVER HELPS, IT NEVER HELPS AT ALL. THAT IS THE ********. THE ******** IS THAT WE ARE SO POISONED AGAINST SHOWING ANY KIND OF WEAKNESS THAT WE GET SHAMED INTO THINKING IT IS ALL US, IT IS OUR CHOICES, IT IS OUR FAILINGS THAT MAKE US LIKE THIS. BY MY PARENTS, MY WIFE, THE CHURCH LEADERS I TURNED TO FOR HELP, EVEN MY BEST FRIEND SAT THERE AND SAID "HEY JUST SNAP OUT OF IT, BE A MAN!!"
BY GOD I DARE ANYONE WHO IS NOT A MAN TO GO THROUGH THIS FOR THE BETTER PART OF 2 DECADES WITHOUT KILLING THEMSELVES. IT TAKES MORE THAN A MAN TO FIGHT THROUGH IT EVERY SINGLE MINUTE OF EVERY SINGLE DAY!!! IF YOU HAVEN'T BEEN THERE AND YOU CANNOT KNOW WHAT IT IS LIKE THEN SHUT THE **** UP...AND LISTEN!! JUST STOP TALKING AND LISTEN TO THE PERSON.
I finally had someone listen to me. We had moved around and finally made it back to Utah. I had attempted suicide twice in that time frame, believing WITH ALL MY SOUL THAT IT WAS DOING MY FAMILY...MY KIDS...A HUGE FAVOR. GET OUT OF THEIR LIVES, SET THEM FREE. We started going back to a doctor that I had always connected with. He listened to whatever it was I had gone to him about, then just put his hand on my leg and looked into my eyes and asked "but how are you?" I broke down then and there and felt like a total ***** for doing it. I still feel somewhat ashamed. I told him everything I had been feeling, and that I couldn't understand why I felt that way, and how it and what everyone was telling me made me feel about myself. We talked and he walked me through the first assessment I had taken, and told me I was suffering from clinical depression. After a few more visits with him and a couple other doctors, among them a neurologist and a psychiatrist, I was diagnosed with a form of post-traumatic stress syndrome. The same thing guys have coming home from war. It occurs in patients who had dealt with a serious physical trauma (cancer is a common trigger) in which the body more or less reconfigures the brain chemistry to help the mind cope with an uncopeable (is that a word?) situation, and sometimes the brain cannot bounce back, the chemicals stay out of whack even though the trigger is gone, and long-term severe depression is often the result.
After nearly 8 years of my family's life I finally started getting help. Most of my children's childhood they had to deal with a dad like me, and I will never get those years back. Oh I wasn't abusive, but depression makes itself known. I was hyper-critical, didn't want to spend time with my kids, I was quick to anger, and slow to apologize, I was suffering and in some ways took it out on my family. That is where the "how can you do this to your family" bit comes in I guess.
Now I have been in treatment for about 6 years, and I have come to terms, mostly, with the fact that I will likely never get on top of this. To date I have tried 14 different medications all with varying effects, none that really every worked. The most I can hope for, I fear, is to feel kind of ok sometimes. But that is better than the alternative. Not long after I quit Jazzfanz a while back I went through an experience trying to help someone very very dear to me get through her own bout with depression, and I was on the phone with her trying to talk her down when she decided to end her life. I was already in a low point and it put me into a tailspin and I made another attempt on my own life.
I'm doing ok now. I go through periods of severe relapse, following by adjusting meds or trying new ones, and then I get back to ok. But I can live with ok.
I guess I needed to share, I don't know why I put all this out there, but there it is.
If you know anyone you have ever told to just "snap out of it" please try to help them get help.
Big time MAN of a post right there. Thanks for sharing, log. I don't know you personally, but I'd be damn proud to.
Log's story remind me of this ad I see every now and again on telly of John Kirwan an Ex All Blacks who had gone through depression
And yeah, "hardening up" is not what you're supposed to do.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0rxi-Uaf1w
And yeah, "hardening up" is not what you're supposed to do.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0rxi-Uaf1w
Hantlers
Well-Known Member
Yup. That's exactly what I said.
I'm amazed they allow you to teach with the reading comprehension that you show.
Just like not being depressed is a gift you take for granted, having the strength to reach out and go on is also a gift you take for granted. I feel pity for people denied these gifts; I don't call them cowards because I was lucky enough to have been given them.
It's the context of what you said.