Game Thread Oct 20, 2021 07:00PM MT: Jazz vs. Thunder

Huh, I know I'm not a basketball expert, but I thought Whiteside looked ok out there for a backup Center. He definitely fouled too much but I remember Ed Davis playing and the difference is like night and day.

Handlogten's Heros said:

We need to go back and watch Ed Davis tape every time we get too whiny.

I also am viewing everything Whiteside from the perspective that come playoff time unless the other team has a huge backup center we will go small and use Gay/Paschall at 4/5. Hassan is an innings eater in the regular season.

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That’s kind of where I am with Whiteside. I don’t think he’s a bad innings eater. He’s just not going to be playable in the playoffs and I’m not saying that because he had a bad series or two. His weaknesses are just too easy to exploit in a series.

With that in mind, I’d rather just invest more in Paschall/Gay (idc who you want to call the 5) during the RS. They might be just as bad….I’ve said multiple times that going small doesn’t really help us unless other things improve…but at the very least it engages the other players into playing more defense because they have to. We need as many defensive reps as possible where we are not relying on Gobert or another traditional big to do everything.

I would at least like to see a regular rotation between different options once Gay is back. I’m high on Paschall right now and don’t want to send him into the doghouse.

I think we end up only playing one of these 3 when the rotation gets tight deep into the playoffs. I’m relatively high on Paschall and less optimistic about Gay, so I could see Paschall emerge ahead of Gay by the end of the year and be that guy.

KqWIN said:

That’s kind of where I am with Whiteside. I don’t think he’s a bad innings eater. He’s just not going to be playable in the playoffs and I’m not saying that because he had a bad series or two. His weaknesses are just too easy to exploit in a series.

With that in mind, I’d rather just invest more in Paschall/Gay (idc who you want to call the 5) during the RS. They might be just as bad….I’ve said multiple times that going small doesn’t really help us unless other things improve…but at the very least it engages the other players into playing more defense because they have to. We need as many defensive reps as possible where we are not relying on Gobert or another traditional big to do everything.

I would at least like to see a regular rotation between different options once Gay is back. I’m high on Paschall right now and don’t want to send him into the doghouse.

I think we end up only playing one of these 3 when the rotation gets tight deep into the playoffs. I’m relatively high on Paschall and less optimistic about Gay, so I could see Paschall emerge ahead of Gay by the end of the year and be that guy.

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If the defense can survive while small the big benefit comes on the offensive side where the other team is spread out. I think Gay is the STRONG favorite because of shooting, rebounding, size, and status as a player. Paschall may be better than Whiteside and may take up the mantle as the roll guy in the offense... so he'd be the offensive center with Gay functioning more as the defensive center.

I think we will try it for sure. It isn't a replacement for what we do with Rudy in the playoffs but it might boost us for 10 minutes or so a night in the playoffs.

I think we just have solid option off the bench we haven't had. Whiteside is just fine if you want to go big... I don't get the hand wringing on him. Paschall and Gay are great options if you want to go small. Udoka is a large human... and there are generally guys on the waiver wire if we get in a big bind.

fishonjazz said:

No ****. Great point. There is only one reason for anyone with poor eyesight not to get lasik. Cause you can't afford it. I'm pretty sure Donovan can afford it.
This makes me think Donovan might be kind of a dumbass

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I'm not a candidate for lasik because of issues with my cornea and fluctuating prescriptions over the years. So there.

Actually though, I'm looking into ICL as an option. But it can be pretty spendy.

Handlogten's Heros said:

If the defense can survive while small the big benefit comes on the offensive side where the other team is spread out. I think Gay is the STRONG favorite because of shooting, rebounding, size, and status as a player. Paschall may be better than Whiteside and may take up the mantle as the roll guy in the offense... so he'd be the offensive center with Gay functioning more as the defensive center.

I think we will try it for sure. It isn't a replacement for what we do with Rudy in the playoffs but it might boost us for 10 minutes or so a night in the playoffs.

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I guess it is pretty hard for me seeing Paschall be a better 4 next to Gobert than Gay....I'm just a little skeptical of Gay coming into this season. He's 35 and will have to undergo a major transformation in his role, so I'll wait and see how that plays out.

KqWIN said:

I guess it is pretty hard for me seeing Paschall be a better 4 next to Gobert than Gay....I'm just a little skeptical of Gay coming into this season. He's 35 and will have to undergo a major transformation in his role, so I'll wait and see how that plays out.

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I don't see it as a major transformation at all. He has already transformed his game. I think Paschall has a bigger transformation ahead and he's still very much developing as a player. I'm really confident Gay will be good for us once he is physically ready.

Handlogten's Heros said:

I don't see it as a major transformation at all. He has already transformed his game. I think Paschall has a bigger transformation ahead and he's still very much developing as a player. I'm really confident Gay will be good for us once he is physically ready.

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He may not be playing the same way he did in his prime, but he's replacing a guy who still had 10% less usage than him. He was the second highest usage player on the Spurs last season and is used to being one of the main options on the court as he has been his entire career. Even if his role isn't quite the same as Niang, it will still be a big adjustment. He's going from a team that depended on him to create shots to a team where it's probably detrimental to do the same thing. Hopefully shooting keeps up and the new role suits him better and the better teammates allow him to create efficiently when he does....but it's an adjustment nonetheless.

Handlogten's Heros said:

Individual plus minus in one game is not helpful... I know you know that.

I think with Hassan you have to look at what good things he did vs. the bad things... if it is roughly even its fine. He had a couple blocks, was all over the glass, and generally looked to be trying to do the right things... he was also kind of funny (he gets an entertainment factor bonus). He gave up a couple easy ones on missed rotations.. he took two hook shots that are not what we are looking for.

Overall I take his game last night as solid. He was good enough to maintain a healthy lead in the fourth against a ****** team which allowed Rudy to get some extra rest. Anytime we can get 19 minutes out of him in a win vs. 12 it is helpful.

He didn't seem to **** the offense up too bad. He looked better on both ends than Ed Davis ever did... On a minimum deal I think he exceeded expectations... Lets see how he looks after 15-20 games... I may be ready to get off the roller coaster.

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Totally with you. There were some maddening possessions, though.

KqWIN said:

He may not be playing the same way he did in his prime, but he's replacing a guy who still had 10% less usage than him. He was the second highest usage player on the Spurs last season and is used to being one of the main options on the court as he has been his entire career. Even if his role isn't quite the same as Niang, it will still be a big adjustment. He's going from a team that depended on him to create shots to a team where it's probably detrimental to do the same thing. Hopefully shooting keeps up and the new role suits him better and the better teammates allow him to create efficiently when he does....but it's an adjustment nonetheless.

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The defensive attention he gets on the Jazz in comparison with the Suns will be night and day different. Should make thing a lot easier for him.

LogGrad98 said:

I'm not a candidate for lasik because of issues with my cornea and fluctuating prescriptions over the years. So there.

Actually though, I'm looking into ICL as an option. But it can be pretty spendy.

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ICL is safer and reversible. Just get a good vision plan the year you decide to do it to subsidize the cost.

fishonjazz said:

No ****. Great point. There is only one reason for anyone with poor eyesight not to get lasik. Cause you can't afford it. I'm pretty sure Donovan can afford it.
This makes me think Donovan might be kind of a dumbass

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I was thinking the same thing but didn’t want to get flamed for saying something negative about Don. Not wanting to touch your eye sounds like a good excuse if your like 7 years old. It just seems super weird to say that as an excuse…. Wtf?


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Hassan will probably piss me off more times than not but I do find him entertaining for some reason.


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FAILED STATE said:

Totally with you. There were some maddening possessions, though.

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I think he’s the worse, less fun, big version of JC… not all roller coasters are fun all the time. Just gotta ride the lows and enjoy the highs.

KqWIN said:

He may not be playing the same way he did in his prime, but he's replacing a guy who still had 10% less usage than him. He was the second highest usage player on the Spurs last season and is used to being one of the main options on the court as he has been his entire career. Even if his role isn't quite the same as Niang, it will still be a big adjustment. He's going from a team that depended on him to create shots to a team where it's probably detrimental to do the same thing. Hopefully shooting keeps up and the new role suits him better and the better teammates allow him to create efficiently when he does....but it's an adjustment nonetheless.

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An adjustment is not the same as a major transformation. He can be more like Bogey than Niang and be fine. Take one less two or skew more towards a spot up guy. He’s already doubled his 3P attempt rate. It’s not even a huge adjustment imo… he doesn’t need to be Niang. He’s shown himself to be malleable and there are a few wings that have made similar adjustments into their late career and done quite well. I only worry if the heel issue lingers.

Handlogten's Heros said:

An adjustment is not the same as a major transformation. He can be more like Bogey than Niang and be fine. Take one less two or skew more towards a spot up guy. He’s already doubled his 3P attempt rate. It’s not even a huge adjustment imo… he doesn’t need to be Niang. He’s shown himself to be malleable and there are a few wings that have made similar adjustments into their late career and done quite well. I only worry if the heel issue lingers.

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I mean….we can call it whatever. Going from the the 1st or 2nd option to the 4th or 5th option and barely touching the ball is a big difference in my opinion.

If he plays the way he did last year in SAS he will end up hurting the offense. There’s a reason why his efficiency was woefully below league average last season despite a career year shooting from 3. Scoring the tough buckets and creating his own shot was very much part of his role for SAS.

Like you said, many have done this transition before and even if it is a much different role it might be just what he needs to keep his career. He’s already trending this way and if SAS wasn’t so terrible maybe he might have already made the drop to a 15 usage guy.

I have less worry about the role shift than I do about the age/injury situation…especially considering that most people seem to be banking on a big defensive upgrade. 35 is really getting up there. Unless it’s LeBron I have them in the “we’ll have to wait and see” category.

So regarding the whole Hassan thing, what we're seeing lacking are the things that a certain Ekpe Udoh does in an elite fashion. No secret that I've pined for Udoh being the primary backup since forever, and have advocated that multiple off-seasons. Everything you want from Rudy in terms of having the defense run the same way is possible with Udoh than pretty much anyone else I can think of in the league. Udoh can protect the rim and gets blocks, but it's his rotations and agility, as well as his ability to step out to the perimeter, that make him the perfect fit in that regard. The biggest challenge with Udoh is his severe offensive limitations (which wouldn't be as big of an issue with how we're presently constituted) and also his horrible rebounding (which would be an issue). Those are the things Udoh gives you that Whiteside does not (and that Favors does not). On the other end of this, what Hassan does that Udoh doesn't is actually quite a significant difference. Whiteside's rebounding percentage is typically about twice that of Udoh's, and with our current makeup that's a big deal. Whiteside being able to catch a pass and have a body on him and his offense is overall worlds better, even if you're not running anything for Whiteside and even if you don't want him having much usage. Whiteside isn't really spacing things per se, but his presence will keep the defense a lot more honest than Udoh. So if you're not willing to stomach the extreme of going to Udoh, Whiteside offers a good compromise between Favors and Udoh. You probably won't change a lot of his instant instincts to any significant degree, but I believe he can fit in with his physical profile to being able to play more the style that we're looking for than Favors physical profile allowed. The rebounding and attention from the defense (relative to Favors) provides a bit of extra sauce.

tl;dr I think Whitesidee can come in and check most the boxes of adequacy. The comparison is with our alternatives and not with Rudy. I think he'll adapt to a degree and his defensive style will approach what we need more so than it does now (not entirely). Dwight Howard was my other underrated alternative.

Lol @ Jazzfanz being Jazzfanz. We always need to have someone to beat up on, and Whiteside is an easy target. I'll say it again, there'sa reason Gobert is a 3x DPOY. Not too many bigs can cover th3 floor like he does. Whiteside plays better defense than Al Jefferdad, and we started him for 3 seasons.

Did we lose? I read the last few posts and it feels that way.

whatthe said:

Did we lose? I read the last few posts and it feels that way.

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According to the NBA, yes.