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2012 Draft: Taking best player available vs Targeting a certain position

Kyoto said:
Thinking like that is the same kind of thinking that made Portland draft Sam Bowie over Michael Jordan... or Greg Oden over Kevin Durant.
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Everyone is a general after the battle. Notice that if you read the papers from the summer of '84 or '07, there's much less of a consensus.
 
BENTLEY said:
This is dumb.

Let me illustrate: Jazz need a PG. Only prospects left in the draft are Karl Malone (we already have too many PFs!) and Kevin Kruger (Jazz need a PG!).

You're saying you'd pass on Karl Malone and pick Kevin Kruger.
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Nice job knocking down that strawman. Cause, you know, we can totally compare Kanter to the greatest PF of all time and Knight or Walker to a D-League player. And I'm dumb?
 
Brown Notes said:
It's depressing to see constant draft threads when the season is about to start. It's almost like I'm on my Browns board.
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It's just one topic amongst the 'what to do with Milsap', CJ, fantasy drafts, etc .. all are relevant to the Jazz .. all just getting us through to game 1.
 
I believe you draft best player available in the lottery, and start picking based on needs after the lottery. What that means is that we would have to see where the Jazz are in the draft before I would decide.

Of course KOC will always say best player available (though I don't completely believe it. I think he uses that to prevent teams from trying to take advantage of him)
 
JimLes said:
Nice job knocking down that strawman. Cause, you know, we can totally compare Kanter to the greatest PF of all time and Knight or Walker to a D-League player. And I'm dumb?
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I used an outrageous fictitious example to help you see the best-player-available principle.
You too I guess would pick Karl Malone over a "needed" PG.

But using this hypothetical of "known" commodities (Malone, Kruger) got your panties in a bunch so we'll stick to literals.
If two players talent appears to be equal for their positions - as you might say regarding Kanter and Knight - then you gotta go with the big. WHY? because there's a premium on bigs. PGs are plentiful. Unless they're truly special? Is Knight truly special? I dunno but Calipari coached both of 'em and he said he'd pick Kanter first.

"But we already have bigs - we don't need another who won't get playing time!" I understand but since there are so many PGs and so few good bigs in the league you can trade a big and get a much better return than you can for a PG. Supply and demand.


BTW, No one knew Karl Malone woulda been the "greatest PF of all time" or 11 teams wouldn't have passed on him (I say 11 instead of 12 because NY picked Ewing first and no one blames them for that). The jury's still out but there's reason for optimism on Kanter.
 
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bluenote said:
O.K. forget what I said. As long as the point guard discussion keeps coming up, you guys should keep an eye on Trey Burke at Michigan. He is a freshman this year and looks very solid - smart, aggressive, poised, pretty good shot and looks to pass as well. Never makes dumb decisions besides a hurried up 3 here and there. Next year Michigan will break out with some other good freshman coming in- McGary, Glen Robinson III, and if Hardaway Jr.stays. Burke could go in the 2012 draft if he keeps improving this quickly. May be one of the few desirable point guards in the coming years.
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Burke to Burks for the dunk!
 
BENTLEY said:
BTW, No one knew Karl Malone woulda been the "greatest PF of all time" or 11 teams wouldn't have passed on him (I say 11 instead of 12 because NY picked Ewing first and no one blames them for that). The jury's still out but there's reason for optimism on Kanter.
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This is such a simple concept, yet so few people seem to grasp it. No one before a draft KNOWS BEYOND A SHADOW OF A DOUBT how a particular player will pan out. Yet people point to ******** like that to say that so and so is the worst whatever since he didn't know THEN what we all know NOW way after the fact.

It shows gross stupidity when people post **** like that.

"KOC is the worst GM ever because he picked D Will over CP3."

"What kind of moron would have ever picked any guard ahead of Tony Parker that year." (oh I don't know, 19 of them or so)

"How did Malone drop all the way to 13th, all those other teams must have just been stupid."

If your measure of the abilities of a GM includes the necessity for true and flawless clairvoyance, well you need to get out of your mother's basement more often.
 
cctrackstar said:
Tim Duncan is an old tired man, that's why he's only getting 28 min per game. I believe he's also getting more then the 2-3 points per game that Joel Anthony is getting, which kinda justifies him starting.
Millsap is much younger than Duncan, and if he 'were' good enough to start on a championship team he would demand more mins then that; which gives the other team plenty of time to take advantage of his shortness. (remember, your example Duncan is almost seven feet tall, strengthening my position.)



If this were true, than it wouldn't be Millsap that makes us a contender, it would be Dwight. All this is saying is that Millsap doesn't have what it takes to get it done without superstar help, so he'd be what, after a good point guard the third or fourth option. Yeah, every team needs good role players -like Millsap.

As for Charles Barkley, different player different time. Barkley did well at 6'7ish during a time that Karl Malone was dominating the league at 6'9. Now you have Pau Gasol at 7', Duncan at 6'11', Bosh at 6'11, Dirk at 6'11, all playing the majority of their time at the 4. In order to play the 4 for the majority of mins a player really needs to be at least 6'10, if not than that player is a LIABILITY.

Paul Millsap is a situational player. If the other team goes small, he's a great asset, and he may get significant mins playing that way, but if he were to start full time, enjoy the lottery, or first round exits.
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Hold on tiger;

you're initial point was that Paul Millsap could NOT be a STARTER on a contending team. You post now contradicts this, especially the bolded area. You now say Millsap CAN start on a contender, but he wouldn't be the star player- something I never claimed.

Good argument, sir.
 
Do you admit that Millsap, if starting on a championship team - would not be the first or even second option? If so, then that's fine, I guess. Every team needs role players as I think I mentioned, even on the starting line.

However -- The Jazz have at least one if not two players that are either better now, or will be better very very soon. Al Jefferson is really a power forward playing center out of naccessity. Favors is about as good as Millsap is right now, and he's coming off a really emotionally draining rookie season. Memo has been an all star and is more of a 4 than a 5. Kanter is an unknown, but when you draft a guy with the third pick, you really try to play them. All of these players are between 3 and 4 inches taller than Millsap.

Now I realize that Millsap has some really great abilities. He kind of blocks shots like AK, he is developing a mid range game, and he has improved his footwork. Unfortunately, the front court is stacked with players that are as good as he is and much taller. He either comes off the bench as a sixth man, or he is traded for value.

(yeah, I know, Memo is all washed up, but the other players are everything I said and probably more.)
((and what about Evans? What are we going to do with him. Realize that even he is about 2 to 3 inches taller than Millsap))
 
cctrackstar said:
Do you admit that Millsap, if starting on a championship team - would not be the first or even second option? If so, then that's fine, I guess. Every team needs role players as I think I mentioned, even on the starting line.

However -- The Jazz have at least one if not two players that are either better now, or will be better very very soon. Al Jefferson is really a power forward playing center out of naccessity. Favors is about as good as Millsap is right now, and he's coming off a really emotionally draining rookie season. Memo has been an all star and is more of a 4 than a 5. Kanter is an unknown, but when you draft a guy with the third pick, you really try to play them. All of these players are between 3 and 4 inches taller than Millsap.

Now I realize that Millsap has some really great abilities. He kind of blocks shots like AK, he is developing a mid range game, and he has improved his footwork. Unfortunately, the front court is stacked with players that are as good as he is and much taller. He either comes off the bench as a sixth man, or he is traded for value.

(yeah, I know, Memo is all washed up, but the other players are everything I said and probably more.)
((and what about Evans? What are we going to do with him. Realize that even he is about 2 to 3 inches taller than Millsap))
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So the merit of a player should be solely based on height??

This reminds me; you never addressed an earlier question of mine. If height determines a players effectiveness, why is a 6'4" PF in the hall of fame, and is considered to be one of the best of all-time?? Charles Barkley completely destroys any point you are trying to make. If you wanna talk defense, so does Ben Wallace. So does Dennis Rodman.
 
Catchall said:
I think teams typically draft BPA and consider position as a tie-breaker if two players are considered equal talents. The Blazers passing on Michael Jordan is pretty much the example people point to when arguing that you always take BPA.
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Was Jordan considered the better player than Bowie? I was too young to know.
 
* necessity
 
Always take the best available. It's the Michael Jordan rule. Portland has Drexler @ SG and needed a center, so they drafted Sam Bowie. They should have drafted Jordan and played him at center.
 
Jeffrey32 said:
Always take the best available. It's the Michael Jordan rule. Portland has Drexler @ SG and needed a center, so they drafted Sam Bowie. They should have drafted Jordan and played him at center.
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What kind of center could they have received if they traded Drexler after drafting Jordan? What if they had kept both and played Jordan at the 2 and Drexler at the 3? Don't be so short-sighted that no matter what the draft pick MUST fill the open slot. There are more options than one.
 
JimLes said:
Drafting the best player is stupid, unless the difference between that guy and the guy you wanna draft based on need is tremendous. If you create a logjam at a position, sooner or later you'll have to clear it, never mind that you'll still have the original need to fill.
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This was pretty much the mindset of Portland's FO when they gave up their choice of Deron or CP3, because they already had Sebastian Telfair. I'm glad our FO doesn't think this way, and maybe in the next draft, we can take advantage of some other sucker who does. Again.

JimLes said:
Everyone is a general after the battle.
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Not quite everyone. Being a general requires one to apply the knowledge learned from lost battles, in order to avoid repeating those mistakes.
 
Millsap is BadAzz! He would of had a better year if he wasn't playing with Jefferson. We all seen what he could do on our old team. Also remember he started last year off, averaging 20 and 12. But our offense went into a funk. Jefferson would clog up the middle and didn't move in the offense very well. Also you have to consider that Deron was traded which meant having to learn how to play without him.
 
bluenote said:
O.K. forget what I said. As long as the point guard discussion keeps coming up, you guys should keep an eye on Trey Burke at Michigan. He is a freshman this year and looks very solid - smart, aggressive, poised, pretty good shot and looks to pass as well. Never makes dumb decisions besides a hurried up 3 here and there. Next year Michigan will break out with some other good freshman coming in- McGary, Glen Robinson III, and if Hardaway Jr.stays. Burke could go in the 2012 draft if he keeps improving this quickly. May be one of the few desirable point guards in the coming years.
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According to search, this is the first mention of Trey Burke on jazzfanz.

You da man bluenote.
 
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