A Few Things I Think I Think

[Handlogten's Heros]

Look... none of these are sure fire I believe 100% things about this team... these are all things I think I think...

1- We should trade Royce if necessary to get the improvements we need. I love Royce... he takes a lot of ****. He's been better on defense in the past than he has this year. I think the knee injury is bothering him. I also think that House and Paschall will functionally give us what Royce is this year and 85%-90% of what Royce gives us when healthy. It was just eye opening how much better those guys move than our other wings... Royce has been a little stiffer than normal. His role is the one that we likely have to get by on a budget because we no longer have the cap flexibility or draft picks to manuever the way we need. He was never a stopper... but would do good work making sure bigger wings didn't obliterate us. We can make due with others and I think House with his ball handling and driving would offset his less good shooting. Paschall can also fill in and moves very well. Can't put him on the quick guards... but honestly that was never Royce's forte.

2- We have to move on from JC.... and its the offense that is the bigger problem. JC isn't a terrible offensive player... he was great when our offense was average. I don't feel we can run the system the way we need to when he is on the floor because the ball sticks. That is fine for the minutes Donovan and Mike are off the floor... but those minutes aren't worth the price and efficiency tax we pay for the other minutes. The defense obvi doesn't help. We need to make a move here and I think his value is higher than we think.

3- We need to extend our championship window... and will eventually move Mike. Likely this offseason unless Donovan or Rudy demand out. This will be tough because he is a great playmaker and smooths out the rough edges the offense has... but unless we win it this year I think our window is slamming shut and can be propped open with the right move. If the right deal came around this year I wouldn't be opposed... and there are some opportunities.

4- Quin needs to be put in his place. He doesn't get a huge voice in player personnel decisions. If he doesn't like it we replace him. He is part of the problem with his rotations and rigidness. He sounded shocked his team played hard last night. He thinks the regulars will magically take the hunger those other players showed and it will transfer over... I have bad news for him. You may as well try to transfer Forrest's defensive ability to JC or Ingles shooting to Forrest. It was clear as ****ing day that EP was productive and gave us such a huge energy boost... and Quin benched him in a very clear opportunity for him to play so that he could run an experiment with Udoka. Quin needs to be told that we can have our base systems on both sides of the ball... but we also need counters and they need to be put in place during the offseason... learning the dance on the dance floor does not work. Quin has been a little stale and the players have reflected that staleness.

 

[NUMBERICA]

1000%

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

1. I'm pretty against trading Royce. I get why he has a lot of haters on this board, but his defensive versatility and rebounding is pretty hard to replace, all while being a super efficient low usage offensive player. The Jazz need versatile defenders as much as they need the mythical lockdown defender everyone here pines over. That and he's a perfect fit offensively in basically every Jazz lineup. I get arguments to why he shouldn't play in crunch time because he's pretty bad offensively with the game tight to close.

2. Of course.

3. I'd be more in favor of going all in for this year and next. Trade whatever 1st rounder you can, just put lottery protections on it. If it doesnt work out by 2023 blow it up.

4. Im like 50/50 on all stuff Quin. Clearly one of the best coaches in the NBA. Extremely smart. Has created one of the best offenses in the NBA. I just dont get why he likes Clarkson so much. Just do #2 now and figure 1,3, and 4 later.

 

[jom2003]

I'm sure we all can agree on Royce. Really tired of Quin giving him minutes no matter what as if he's the star on the team or something. Royce is really just a role player and should be treated like such. When he was clearly struggling, send him to the bench and bring in House.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

This is spot on. As far as your first point, honestly, I'm pretty sure we could sign House to a minimum and get almost the same level of production that we get from Royce at $9 million. House probably isn't quite as good of a 3 point shooter but likely a better driver and passer and maybe even a slightly better defender. I also think that Royce has more trade value than Joe and JC at this point. He might just be our best trade chip.

There have been some comments by Andy Larsen during radio interviews about how the Jazz are going out of their way to do everything they can to try and make Donovan happy, so the real question is...is Ryan smith willing to risk upsetting Donovan by trading away his best friend?

Main reason Jazz have become the disappointment they are. Way too much placating a diva.

 

[LogGrad98]

This is spot on. As far as your first point, honestly, I'm pretty sure we could sign House to a minimum and get almost the same level of production that we get from Royce at $9 million. House probably isn't quite as good of a 3 point shooter but likely a better driver and passer and maybe even a slightly better defender. I also think that Royce has more trade value than Joe and JC at this point. He might just be our best trade chip.

There have been some comments by Andy Larsen during radio interviews about how the Jazz are going out of their way to do everything they can to try and make Donovan happy, so the real question is...is Ryan smith willing to risk upsetting Donovan by trading away his best friend?

If that is true about placating DM that is disappointing. You don't build championship teams by forcing your buddies in unless your buddies are already all-stars. If that is true I would support trading DM to get out from under that garbage.

 

[rjfan]

I'd be not so much on board on trading Royce because he really developed that three and some array of opportunistic on ball skills that makes him kinda unique on offense. Like, ok, if he's the difference to land that big quality defensive wing we're so needed, you eventually do it, but if not, i'd suggest to navigate through it (even if it means rest him a couple weeks or more, knowing it could mean losing more games).

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

I'd be not so much on board on trading Royce because he really developed that three and some array of opportunistic on ball skills that makes him kinda unique on offense. Like, ok, if he's the difference to land that big quality defensive wing we're so needed, you eventually do it, but if not, i'd suggest to navigate through it (even if it means rest him a couple weeks or more, knowing it could mean losing more games).

Trading Royce to get a defender? That's basically like turning in a circle. The Jazz need to add volume of defensive players more than they do a single elite defender, IMO.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Main reason Jazz have become the disappointment they are. Way too much placating a diva.

Not really... other than bringing in Dwayne Wade, Paschall (who is good), retaining Royce... how has placating Donovan changed us?

I do agree with the sentiment though... we should not worry too much about keeping Donovan around for 7-10 more years. He is part of the franchise... he is not the entire franchise. For example it has not really helped the Wiz or Blazers the last few years to cling on to Beal and Dame and build around them. There comes a time when it has run its course and you need to sell off parts and rebuild.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Not really... other than bringing in Dwayne Wade, Paschall (who is good), retaining Royce... how has placating Donovan changed us?

I do agree with the sentiment though... we should not worry too much about keeping Donovan around for 7-10 more years. He is part of the franchise... he is not the entire franchise. For example it has not really helped the Wiz or Blazers the last few years to cling on to Beal and Dame and build around them. There comes a time when it has run its course and you need to sell off parts and rebuild.

Have you not watched Mitchell regress every single season on defense?

I dont really care about Paschall or Royce. I wasnt talking about the moves the Jazz make like that. I mean more that they are actively encouraging Mitchell to play hero ball and not holding him accountable on the defensive end.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

1. I'm pretty against trading Royce. I get why he has a lot of haters on this board, but his defensive versatility and rebounding is pretty hard to replace, all while being a super efficient low usage offensive player. The Jazz need versatile defenders as much as they need the mythical lockdown defender everyone here pines over. That and he's a perfect fit offensively in basically every Jazz lineup. I get arguments to why he shouldn't play in crunch time because he's pretty bad offensively with the game tight to close.

2. Of course.

3. I'd be more in favor of going all in for this year and next. Trade whatever 1st rounder you can, just put lottery protections on it. If it doesnt work out by 2023 blow it up.

4. Im like 50/50 on all stuff Quin. Clearly one of the best coaches in the NBA. Extremely smart. Has created one of the best offenses in the NBA. I just dont get why he likes Clarkson so much. Just do #2 now and figure 1,3, and 4 later.

I only trade Royce if we get value for him. He might be the type that gets you a little more value in a trade than he should. If the market is tepid keep him... I just would have him very much on the table if it helps us get something done.

Your take on 3 and 1 run against each other. If you push a pick into the middle now it really bothers your ability to blow it up. If you lottery protect it then it has to convey by 2028 or the obligation is extinguished... so it would be a "fake" first... how much value does that really have? So it has to have light protections... we are out a pick this year and likely in 2024... so doing a rebuild then is really tough since we don't have control of our own draft. Make a run now but if it fails then Conley is very much on the table imo.

If the offers are really good for Conley now... I would strongly consider it. I think the Celtics and Wizards would be very interested. I wouldn't be throwing his name out there... but if other teams bowled me over I wouldn't be above moving him.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Have you not watched Mitchell regress every single season on defense?

I dont really care about Paschall or Royce. I wasnt talking about the moves the Jazz make like that. I mean more that they are actively encouraging Mitchell to play hero ball and not holding him accountable on the defensive end.

I think he has been better this year than last. On some nights he's been good and hasn't had as many truly terrible nights. I think other guys regressing and teams being more prepared for our stuff is what has hurt our defense most.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

About the only deal I would put a pick in is if we swapped JC and a first for Smart. Likely some other filler in there but that's it from my end. If it is a fake first (lotto protected for 3 years and then turns into a second) then sure... not sure how much value that carries because in 3-4 years we are likely in the lotto.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

The Quin stuff is so hard for me because at the end of the day the Jazz have one of the best offenses in NBA history and a lot of that is because of Quin's genius in knowing how to maximize his best players abilities.

The Jared Butler stuff is just borderline unforgivable though. At this point in the season Butler should either be a weapon off the bench or a serious trade piece.

 

[Cptgrnlngs22]

Look... none of these are sure fire I believe 100% things about this team... these are all things I think I think...

1- We should trade Royce if necessary to get the improvements we need. I love Royce... he takes a lot of ****. He's been better on defense in the past than he has this year. I think the knee injury is bothering him. I also think that House and Paschall will functionally give us what Royce is this year and 85%-90% of what Royce gives us when healthy. It was just eye opening how much better those guys move than our other wings... Royce has been a little stiffer than normal. His role is the one that we likely have to get by on a budget because we no longer have the cap flexibility or draft picks to manuever the way we need. He was never a stopper... but would do good work making sure bigger wings didn't obliterate us. We can make due with others and I think House with his ball handling and driving would offset his less good shooting. Paschall can also fill in and moves very well. Can't put him on the quick guards... but honestly that was never Royce's forte.

2- We have to move on from JC.... and its the offense that is the bigger problem. JC isn't a terrible offensive player... he was great when our offense was average. I don't feel we can run the system the way we need to when he is on the floor because the ball sticks. That is fine for the minutes Donovan and Mike are off the floor... but those minutes aren't worth the price and efficiency tax we pay for the other minutes. The defense obvi doesn't help. We need to make a move here and I think his value is higher than we think.

3- We need to extend our championship window... and will eventually move Mike. Likely this offseason unless Donovan or Rudy demand out. This will be tough because he is a great playmaker and smooths out the rough edges the offense has... but unless we win it this year I think our window is slamming shut and can be propped open with the right move. If the right deal came around this year I wouldn't be opposed... and there are some opportunities.

4- Quin needs to be put in his place. He doesn't get a huge voice in player personnel decisions. If he doesn't like it we replace him. He is part of the problem with his rotations and rigidness. He sounded shocked his team played hard last night. He thinks the regulars will magically take the hunger those other players showed and it will transfer over... I have bad news for him. You may as well try to transfer Forrest's defensive ability to JC or Ingles shooting to Forrest. It was clear as ****ing day that EP was productive and gave us such a huge energy boost... and Quin benched him in a very clear opportunity for him to play so that he could run an experiment with Udoka. Quin needs to be told that we can have our base systems on both sides of the ball... but we also need counters and they need to be put in place during the offseason... learning the dance on the dance floor does not work. Quin has been a little stale and the players have reflected that staleness.

I agree with all of this


Sent from my iPhone using JazzFanz

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

The Quin stuff is so hard for me because at the end of the day the Jazz have one of the best offenses in NBA history and a lot of that is because of Quin's genius in knowing how to maximize his best players abilities.

The Jared Butler stuff is just borderline unforgivable though. At this point in the season Butler should either be a weapon off the bench or a serious trade piece.

I think there may be some anti-JB bias with the coaching staff... just based on the stuff that Locke says at times. I also think Donovan loves Forrest.

Its just weird... After a great pre-season Locke throws cold water on the fans love of JB... Quin gets annoyed answering questions about JB. Last night it is a little thing... but in the post cast Locke goes on and on about Forrest... barely mentions JB... just says he showed flashes but that he has to learn how to play NBA defense. Just weird. He messed up a rotation... he committed a couple And 1s but both were trying to get back in the play... then you look up and he had 3 steals and was the only positive plus minus guy.

I wonder if he is a little entitled off the court or if there are things we aren't seeing.

 

[homeytennis]

The Jazz need to do something with Forrest's deal and sign House. With that some interesting names bubbled up the past few days signing GLeague contracts who just happen to be wings. Allan Crabbe, Ty Wallace, Kris Dunn, Traveyon Graham, Jordan Crawford and a couple of guys the Jazz had playing Summer League this year after they signed 10 day covid contracts. Given that Jabari Parker is walking the streets the Jazz might be able to upgrade without going the trade market route.

 

[LoPo]

Main reason Jazz have become the disappointment they are. Way too much placating a diva.

Which diva are you talking about?

Which brings us back to the "who we built around" discussion. That's why statements like calling Don a diva or saying we cater to him is just hot garbage. We sure as hell haven't built intentionally around Donovan Mitchell.

 

[LoPo]

Look... none of these are sure fire I believe 100% things about this team... these are all things I think I think...

1- We should trade Royce if necessary to get the improvements we need. I love Royce... he takes a lot of ****. He's been better on defense in the past than he has this year. I think the knee injury is bothering him. I also think that House and Paschall will functionally give us what Royce is this year and 85%-90% of what Royce gives us when healthy. It was just eye opening how much better those guys move than our other wings... Royce has been a little stiffer than normal. His role is the one that we likely have to get by on a budget because we no longer have the cap flexibility or draft picks to manuever the way we need. He was never a stopper... but would do good work making sure bigger wings didn't obliterate us. We can make due with others and I think House with his ball handling and driving would offset his less good shooting. Paschall can also fill in and moves very well. Can't put him on the quick guards... but honestly that was never Royce's forte.

2- We have to move on from JC.... and its the offense that is the bigger problem. JC isn't a terrible offensive player... he was great when our offense was average. I don't feel we can run the system the way we need to when he is on the floor because the ball sticks. That is fine for the minutes Donovan and Mike are off the floor... but those minutes aren't worth the price and efficiency tax we pay for the other minutes. The defense obvi doesn't help. We need to make a move here and I think his value is higher than we think.

3- We need to extend our championship window... and will eventually move Mike. Likely this offseason unless Donovan or Rudy demand out. This will be tough because he is a great playmaker and smooths out the rough edges the offense has... but unless we win it this year I think our window is slamming shut and can be propped open with the right move. If the right deal came around this year I wouldn't be opposed... and there are some opportunities.

4- Quin needs to be put in his place. He doesn't get a huge voice in player personnel decisions. If he doesn't like it we replace him. He is part of the problem with his rotations and rigidness. He sounded shocked his team played hard last night. He thinks the regulars will magically take the hunger those other players showed and it will transfer over... I have bad news for him. You may as well try to transfer Forrest's defensive ability to JC or Ingles shooting to Forrest. It was clear as ****ing day that EP was productive and gave us such a huge energy boost... and Quin benched him in a very clear opportunity for him to play so that he could run an experiment with Udoka. Quin needs to be told that we can have our base systems on both sides of the ball... but we also need counters and they need to be put in place during the offseason... learning the dance on the dance floor does not work. Quin has been a little stale and the players have reflected that staleness.

Good post. I agree with most of it.

#1 - I disagree because the defense on the perimeter problem isn't Royce. We don't need to replace Royce - need like three of him playing 15-20 mpg instead of 35.

#2 - I agree. I love his heart, but with Don and Conley, we need defense more than JC.

#3 - I agree. Mike makes as much as Royce and JC combined. Would we be better served with more specialists? Is he going to finally put us over the top in a playoff series or just be hurt or not effective?

#4 - I agree completely. The person who can make the most change is Quin. If he doesn't, that changemaker becomes Ainge.

 

[//r00t 4 Jazz]

To me the only way you move on from Quin is if he's lost the team or he doesn't want to be here any longer. Every single fan base gets mad at their HC and the most common by far is substitutions and playing young players, me included usually about subbing in someone who can provide a bit of energy to see if that sparks the rest of the team. Even if you don't believe what the national media says that Quin is one of the top coaches I can all but guarantee if he was let go he would have a HC job in the NBA the next day if he wanted one. One test I use on myself is to pretend if a player or in this case a coach went to another team what is my first reaction, like if Quin went to LAL, or SAS my first thought is "crap that ain't good for the Jazz".

One observational example as far as subs that I have recently noticed in the last few games to me Clarkson has seemed to play with a bit more energy on defense when playing with other players bringing energy such as Paschall and Forrest. Mind you he's still not great on D but if either of Paschall, Forrest or House starts an energy play like a tip ball Clarkson does play with energy and has often times been the one who gets the ball based on on those three player's energy.

I also know I could be bias looking for things I want to happen, like limiting Royce to around 20-24min to see if he can't get back to that higher energy player my mind thinks it remembers him being.

But I also acknowledge with what most have said or hinted at that when going through my complaints during a game the 3 players are usually Ingles, Royce and Clarkson. Whether it is limiting their minutes or involved in some sort of trade.