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A more focused player development strategy

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silesian

Well-Known Member
2022 Prediction Contest Winner
Is it just me, or do others wonder what type of "return on investment" the Jazz get from investing oodles of hours evaluating and developing players with a remote shot to make a 15 man roster? How many hours did our coaching staff invest in developing Elijah Millsap, for example?

The Jazz focus a fair share of their organizational bandwidth and millions into Summer League, D League, flying in and working out hundreds of third tier players, coaching salaries. For players who are likely to not make a team or sign elsewhere.

I believe they should retool this strategy to prioritize and focus on investments into developing players like Rudy, Dante, etc., and spend less time on the Chris Johnson's of the world. They can fairly easily round out the roster from nonaffiliated D leaguers and established veterans.
 
Rodney and Rudy seem to be developing extremely well. I would bet the jazz do this better than most teams.
 
b_line said:
Rodney and Rudy seem to be developing extremely well. I would bet the jazz do this better than most teams.
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Those are players the Jazz would have evaluated if they had 40 players work out for them instead of 100. Lyles and Burks were projected as possible lottery picks.

I think the OP is referring to the 50 or so that are brought in who are fringe prospects (later 2nd or undrafted). Jazz bring in far more players than other teams. But In two years, has DL found any "diamonds in the rough?" And by that, I mean players originally projected as 2nd rounders or undrafted. No, he hasn't. Even CJ and Millsap were plucked off the rosters of other DLeague teams. Heck, just pay homey a stipend to provide DLeague evaluations.

DL is just as likely to sell or trade away a 2nd round pick as to use it. These extra workouts are a joke. The old group did a better job assessing 2nd round or undrafted talent (eg Paul Millsap, Matthews). Maybe they should be holding FT shooting clinics for their existing players instead.
 
for real? This is probably the one thing you can't knock on this team. Even Kanter stopped doing that stupid thing where he would bring the ball down after offensive rebounds.
 
You guys are all missing Salesian's argument. He is NOT advocating abandoning development of players on the roster. His point is directed at the organization's undue concentration on 3rd tier players. Could the Jazz management, coaching and training staff be utilizing their time more wisely?
 
silesian said:
Is it just me, or do others wonder what type of "return on investment" the Jazz get from investing oodles of hours evaluating and developing players with a remote shot to make a 15 man roster? How many hours did our coaching staff invest in developing Elijah Millsap, for example?

The Jazz focus a fair share of their organizational bandwidth and millions into Summer League, D League, flying in and working out hundreds of third tier players, coaching salaries. For players who are likely to not make a team or sign elsewhere.

I believe they should retool this strategy to prioritize and focus on investments into developing players like Rudy, Dante, etc., and spend less time on the Chris Johnson's of the world. They can fairly easily round out the roster from nonaffiliated D leaguers and established veterans.
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surprised you didn't mention Raul Neto. How many hours -- and, more importantly, GAME MINUTES -- have been invested into that guy?

I support this thread because it's actually a covert anti-cakk thread
 
Ok, that's a fair argument. Neto is the crowning achievement thus far of all of Lindsey's extra efforts to evaluate fringe talent. All that time for a player so easily pushed aside by a 3rd stringer from another team obtained with a 2nd round pick.

Again, where is that Paul Millsap or Wesley Matthews find? The old guard invested half the time in workouts and had a better return on 2nd round and undrafted players.
 
Stifle Tower said:
You guys are all missing Salesian's argument. He is NOT advocating abandoning development of players on the roster. His point is directed at the organization's undue concentration on 3rd tier players. Could the Jazz management, coaching and training staff be utilizing their time more wisely?
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I think iii are missing the argument. He is saying abandon the fringe prospects in favor of developing better ones. He is saying the coaching staff only has so much time.

My argument was that the jazz are actually very good at developing their assets.

And they can find players on the fringe. Granted none of them have been Wes Matthews or paul millsap, but those guys are rare.

And Rudy was as close to a millsap like pick as it gets. End of the first round is not supposed to contribute. Hood for that matter too.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337Z using JazzFanz mobile app
 
b_line said:
I think iii are missing the argument. He is saying abandon the fringe prospects in favor of developing better ones. He is saying the coaching staff only has so much time.

My argument was that the jazz are actually very good at developing their assets.

And they can find players on the fringe. Granted none of them have been Wes Matthews or paul millsap, but those guys are rare.

And Rudy was as close to a millsap like pick as it gets. End of the first round is not supposed to contribute. Hood for that matter too.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337Z using JazzFanz mobile app
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No, Rudy was not close to Paul nor Wesley. Rudy would have been brought in anyway. He was on the radar of a few teams as a late first/early 2nd. Hood was viewed as a potential late lottery pick.

We're talking about devoting so much time and resources right now to guys who are not expected to be drafted. There's a HUGE difference!

When you've had such a low ROI in 2 seasons on this, it's time to reassess. Maybe spend even more time evaluating prospects who are going to be there at #12. Or perhaps deciding to look at more draft and stash players. How about more time talking about FA's who might actually make an impact? Ultimately, DL will likely trade or sell a couple of 2nds. So why waste so much time with rec-league players?
 
Stifle Tower said:
No, Rudy was not close to Paul nor Wesley. Rudy would have been brought in anyway. He was on the radar of a few teams. Hood was viewed as a potential late lottery pick.

We're talking about devoting so much time and resources right now to guys who are not expected to be drafted. There's a HUGE difference!

When you've had such a low ROI in 2 seasons on this, it's time to reassess. Maybe spend even more time evaluating prospects who are going to be there at #12. Or perhaps deciding to look at more draft and stash players. How about more time talking about FA's who might actually make an impact? Ultimately, DL will likely trade or sell a couple of 2nds. So why waste so much time with rec-league players?
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I thought you wanted to find more guys like millsap and Wes Matthews? Not less.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337Z using JazzFanz mobile app
 
This is a dog and pony show by the Jazz FO to convince gullible fans they are doing "everything possible" to improve the team.

Well, everything but actually spending enough on players. 28th in the league for two years straight. One of the worst benches in the league. Lindsey and the Millers/ Board of Directors need to put up or shut up. Don't parade church-league players around. Go get decent free agents to come off the bench. Spend some damn money!
 
b_line said:
I thought you wanted to find more guys like millsap and Wes Matthews? Not less.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337Z using JazzFanz mobile app
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And have they? The former GM and staff used to bring in half the number of players as Lindsey for double the return.
 
Thanks for the input and upgrade ideas, everyone.

I'm not strongly advocating and I think this is a nuanced situation. It is about leveraging and focusing resources where it is most impactful on long-term wins. Pareto 80/20 rule would suggest we spend 80% of the time on the 20% of the players to have the most impact. It feels like this is out of kilter and we tend to treat players in a more egalitarian way.

I suspect that Lindsay wants to create a "culture of player development" where players of all skill levels (including potentially elite), want to come to Utah to make the most of their careers. If agents begin to see this, and believe that their players long-term earnings potential can be maximized by playing in Utah, then we become a better destination for players/agents, economically speaking. Of course the risk is that we become a farm system, but the rookie salary structure helps to mitigate this risk.

Contrast this to Darko, where Larry Brown and the Pistons were in "win now" mode and Darko never got on the floor, was not developed to his potential and became a bust. Larry was coaching to win games, not to develop players. I can imagine a much better outcome for Darko in the Jazz system as currently formulated.

Phil Jackson was similar, he wanted "fully baked" players on his team that he can psychologically manipulate and motivate to "win now."

So while the investment in Elijah (for example) did not payoff discretely, the bleed-over to other players could have an overall organizational benefit. And maybe Elijah 2.0 will turn into an effective 3&D rotation guy, who knows?

For those of you who will now accuse me of speaking out of both sides of my mouth, I plead guilty. And to you I respond that it is about finding the right balance. Which is not easy.
 
dalamon said:
for real? This is probably the one thing you can't knock on this team. Even Kanter stopped doing that stupid thing where he would bring the ball down after offensive rebounds.
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Thanks for the feedback. If you believe resources are limited, perhaps we would focus more attention on potentially elite players like Kanter and less on Chris Johnson?
 
I'd add this, too. Are we really trying to find a player who could be, at some point, a 10th-15th guy? Those players are available all day, every day in the DLeague.

Jazz have 12 roster spots pretty much set (provided they keep Withey, Pleiss and Lyles).

Roster spots of Booker, CJ and Burke are likely up for grabs. One should be taken by the #12 pick. I would HOPE DL is going to fill the other 2 with veteran FA's who won't wet their shorts in the 4th quarter.

So why all this scouting for guys who will have contracts owned by the DLeague anyway? Its time to upgrade the rotation, not show scrubs the exciting sights of Salt Lake.
 
I think moving the D league team to SL is an effort to cut down on costs and be more efficient in the evaluation of "end of the bench" and fringe players. Also weren't the Jazz out in front of the whole P3 during the off-season? Isn't P3 just what you are talking about when you are looking at how players can improve and develop?
 
Mongoose said:
. Also weren't the Jazz out in front of the whole P3 during the off-season? Isn't P3 just what you are talking about when you are looking at how players can improve and develop?
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P3 is application of sports science to drive physical improvements (strength, endurance, flexibility, etc.) Think of it as high tech weight training. It is not basketball skills, it is physical development designed specifically to enhance basketball performance.
 
silesian said:
Thanks for the feedback. If you believe resources are limited, perhaps we would focus more attention on potentially elite players like Kanter and less on Chris Johnson?
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I agree it's a little crazy to bring in as many guys as we do, but as to the roster players, I don't know how you are measuring 'attention'. If it's hours, how many hours did the Jazz spend developing Kanter relative to guys like Chris Johnson?
 
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