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Anyone catch Colin Cowherd

Sean

Sean

Well-Known Member
I often find him bloviating and I don't necessarily agree with his point but I do find it interesting.

He says the Jazz shouldn't blow it up because this is basically as good as it can realistically get for the market. The Jazz are in a tough situation playing in a NBA market that may be the least desirable and that just getting to the playoffs as consistently as the franchise has is a feat in and of itself (he compared the franchise to the Wisconsin Badgers in college football).

I do think there is some truth to this. Jazz fans really don't know what it's like to be truly god-awful for a long period of time.

The team relocated to Salt Lake in 1979 and made the first of 20 straight playoff appearances just five years later.

Then they were out of commission for, what, three years before getting back to the playoffs and advancing to the WCF in 2007?

Sure, Utah couldn't pull in a title, or replicate the 2007 run again - and when it blew up, the Jazz went into a mini-rebuild but it was only for a few seasons before they were right back in the postseason.

Now we're at what six-straight appearances?

Does it suck the Jazz can't seem to be ever better than just good? Absolutely. But it's been the franchise's MO for its entire history, minus two years when they made the NBA Finals.

The fact is, going back to 1984, the Jazz have made the NBA Playoffs 31 of the last 39 years. I bet you won't find many NBA franchises with more playoff appearances over the last 40 years.

But how good can it really be in a place like Utah? Is it just the franchise's lot in life to be good, but rarely ever, if never now, great?

And is that better than blowing it up and risking turning into the Sacramento Kings?

Just a thought on this dreary Friday.
 
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**** that. Nobody pays good money and invests their time and spirit into participation trophies.

Small markets, when put together correctly and a little luck, produce championships. SA and MIL have proven it can be done with a generational talent and the right core. We can do the same.

Never settle. If Plan A doesn’t work, there’s 25 more letters.
 
I get his point, but it’s not true. We got Mitchell and Gobert later in the draft. And then had all the pieces and opportunities to turn this version of the team into a championship contender. Instead we whiffed on multiple acquisitions and picks, the team ran out of gas, and missed their window. Now they are petering out to the end on fumes.

Being in SLC had little to do with how much we botched this era of the team. And running it back as is would be insanity. They need to admit failure and make a pivot.
 
Avery said:
**** that. Nobody pays good money and invests their time and spirit into participation trophies.

Small markets, when put together correctly and a little luck, produce championships. SA and MIL have proven it can be done with a generational talent and the right core. We can do the same.

Never settle. If Plan A doesn’t work, there’s 25 more letters.
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I don't think we're just a small market, tho. We're a bad market for NBA talent. The Spurs playing in Texas helps.

Milwaukee is a better example but even there, Wisconsin has 2.6 million more people in it than Utah. Milwaukee also is also 16% Black, where Salt Lake is ... 1.7%.

I also wonder how much of a stigma Utah's reputation is compared to places like Milwaukee and San Antonio.

Finally, for every Milwaukee and San Antonio, there's a handful of other smaller market franchises that have not come close to winning a title.
 
Bawse Dawg said:
I get his point, but it’s not true. We got Mitchell and Gobert later in the draft. And then had all the pieces and opportunities to turn this version of the team into a championship contender. Instead we whiffed on multiple acquisitions and picks, the team ran out of gas, and missed their window. Now they are petering out to the end on fumes.

Being in SLC had little to do with how much we botched this era of the team. And running it back as is would be insanity. They need to admit failure and make a pivot.
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I think they point is that it's easier to whiff in those situations than to hit, say, a royal flush and there's truth to it. Yes, the Jazz could have built around Mitchell and Rudy better but their striking out on that doesn't mean the alternative will be better, as how likely is it the Jazz AGAIN draft a talent like Rudy or Mitchell in the next 5 years?

I think the point is that the Jazz have to be near-perfect when building because they won't get the luxury of some markets when it comes to signing big FA talent after whiffing on a draft pick.

Is the risk worth it to blow the team up and hope to come out better knowing you could turn into Orlando or Sacramento?

Or is it worth it to just tinker with this roster like they did in the 90s with Stockton and Malone until they find their horny?

I will say where Cowherd goes wrong is ignoring the possibility Mitchell will want out if the Jazz can't contend. I do not think Mitchell is a Lillard type player who will stick it out. So, on that point alone, we may be forced to blow it up regardless.
 
People said the same thing about Milwaukee and Toronto. Small market teams and no one want to come here. Look at what they've done. San Antonio isn't exactly the biggest market in sports either.

Of course it's not easy to be good for a long time but it's also kinda hard to be good for so long and never able to take the next step. Whenever Jazz fans feel like we have an awesome team and ready to contend, we always manage to blow it. That's the frustrating part. We could've won a championship way before Toronto or Milwaukee, but just couldn't get it done.
 
Bawse Dawg said:
I get his point, but it’s not true. We got Mitchell and Gobert later in the draft. And then had all the pieces and opportunities to turn this version of the team into a championship contender. Instead we whiffed on multiple acquisitions and picks, the team ran out of gas, and missed their window. Now they are petering out to the end on fumes.

Being in SLC had little to do with how much we botched this era of the team. And running it back as is would be insanity. They need to admit failure and make a pivot.
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Exactly, they should have built a championship team during the gobert and mitchell years like most nba teams did. Think of all the franchises that won a championship during the gobert and mitchell years! Pretty much every team except the jazz won one. At least they swung for the fences with the conley trade (even though I always hated that trade), went and signed bogey to a big deal, traded for clarkson and seemed to try their hardest to win a title. They whiffed on some picks for sure but I dont think they intentionally whiffed on those picks in an attempt to try to avoid winning a title. We had the number 1 seed last season. We kicked *** in the first round of the playoffs. Conley, and donovan got injured/banged up and the clippers out coached our coach. The jazz fielded a championship contender. Just didn't result in a chip. How often do you consider the team with the #1 record in the nba to not be one of the contending teams? Has that ever happened before?
 
I don't agree with this. The issue is play style. Jazz have a small, old-fashioned PG in Mike Conley, and a big gangly center in Gobert. The 5-out model, where everyone scores and everyone defends is a better model.

Salt Lake isn't a great market, but neither are Sacramento, San Antonio, Charlotte, Minnesota, Milwaukee, Orlando, Cleveland, Detroit, or Toronto. You can't just write off one-third of the league because the markets aren't attractive.

The Bucks and Suns were in the Finals last year.
 
Ferguson_Mellochill said:
I don't agree with this. The issue is play style. A small market that isn't a free agent destination has very little room for error. Those teams need to draft well. Now imagine if the Jazz had Desmond Bane and Herb Williams right about now.

Salt Lake isn't a great market, but neither are Sacramento, San Antonio, Charlotte, Minnesota, Milwaukee, Orlando, Cleveland, Detroit, or Toronto. You can't just write off one-third of the league because the markets aren't attractive.
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Exactly. If the jazz drafted desmond bane and/or herb williams then we would be contenders right? Pretty much everyone agrees with that? So that means our GM/front office built a team that was one correct pick away from being a contender right? Thats pretty good imo. (and thats if you think that a team with the best record in the nba going into playoffs wasn't a contender. which I would contend has never happened before.)
 
fishonjazz said:
Exactly, they should have built a championship team during the gobert and mitchell years like most nba teams did. Think of all the franchises that won a championship during the gobert and mitchell years! Pretty much every team except the jazz won one. At least they swung for the fences with the conley trade (even though I always hated that trade), went and signed bogey to a big deal, traded for clarkson and seemed to try their hardest to win a title. They whiffed on some picks for sure but I dont think they intentionally whiffed on those picks in an attempt to try to avoid winning a title. We had the number 1 seed last season. We kicked *** in the first round of the playoffs. Conley, and donovan got injured/banged up and the clippers out coached our coach. The jazz fielded a championship contender. Just didn't result in a chip. How often do you consider the team with the #1 record in the nba to not be one of the contending teams? Has that ever happened before?
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Not sure why you’re so sarcastic. No, they did not mean to make terrible personnel decisions. But they still did. At a time when many fans, if given the reigns, would have made a better decision. So yea, it was botched. And seeing so many easily avoidable mistakes does make me think it could go better for a different era of the team. But the ship has sailed on this version. To your last point, maybe last year would’ve gone differently without injuries. But we aren’t injured now, and it’s worse than ever. They are out of excuses.
 
Bawse Dawg said:
Not sure why you’re so sarcastic. No, they did not mean to make terrible personnel decisions. But they still did. At a time when many fans, if given the reigns, would have made a better decision. So yea, it was botched. And seeing so many easily avoidable mistakes does make me think it could go better for a different era of the team. But the ship has sailed on this version. To your last point, maybe last year would’ve gone differently without injuries. But we aren’t injured now, and it’s worse than ever. They are out of excuses.
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Well I mean you said that they had the opportunity to turn this team into a contender but didn't. So can you name another team that finished with the best record in the nba that you didn't think was a contender going into the playoffs?
I feel like everyone has forgotten how awesome we were last season. We were doing historical ****. I mean shattering records on the regular. We had 3 all stars and the 6th man of the year. plus ingles and bogey killing it from three. Hydra. We were demolishing teams. Best net rating in the nba. One of the top net ratings of all time. That team was ****ing fantastic. It fell short for a variety of reasons. That happens some times. But that team was a contender.
 
The problem is they have given up a lot of picks to go and rebuild. We could get a good score for Rudy and Don, but then our traded picks give tons of value to rivals. To rebuild you need your own pics. We'd have to give picks to get rid of Mike.

I'd like to run it back with a different coach and see what they can do. When Rudy rotates on D he does fine. Get rid of Mike (or limited bench minutes or buyout) and Royce and bring in some bigger guards with 3&D capability and a 4 that can guard the paint too. And bring back Joe!
 
fishonjazz said:
Well I mean you said that they had the opportunity to turn this team into a contender but didn't. So can you name another team that finished with the best record in the nba that you didn't think was a contender going into the playoffs?
I feel like everyone has forgotten how awesome we were last season. We were doing historical ****. I mean shattering records on the regular. We had 3 all stars and the 6th man of the year. plus ingles and bogey killing it from three. Hydra. We were demolishing teams. Best net rating in the nba. One of the top net ratings of all time. That team was ****ing fantastic.
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I put so much less stock in the regular season than ever before. And it’s always been two different games. It was a fun regular season, then we lost three in a row to a team without their best player. We get absolutely cooked by perimeter players in every single playoff series. And even in the best of times the playoff teams never felt like the best version of their regular season selves.

You can use whatever criteria you want for ‘contender’ but the fact is that this team has infinitely more embarrassing playoff choke jobs than round 2 series wins.
 
There's a longer post to be written about this, but I think fans are struggling to even like this team. Sure, some of that is expectations, but watching this team be so good and then fall apart in large part because they don't hustle, D up, or play for each other is really dispiriting.

If you want an example of the opposite, the '18 team cannot be beat. I didn't care that they had almost no chance, I loved that team.
 
To win a title you need a skilled GM like Masai, we were fortunate to win a championship here in Toronto with his mastermind. Utah has never had a skilled front office to pull off those types of moves that Masai had made. Hopefully Ainge will be better than that idiot DL
 
fishonjazz said:
Well I mean you said that they had the opportunity to turn this team into a contender but didn't. So can you name another team that finished with the best record in the nba that you didn't think was a contender going into the playoffs?
I feel like everyone has forgotten how awesome we were last season. We were doing historical ****. I mean shattering records on the regular. We had 3 all stars and the 6th man of the year. plus ingles and bogey killing it from three. Hydra. We were demolishing teams. Best net rating in the nba. One of the top net ratings of all time. That team was ****ing fantastic. It fell short for a variety of reasons. That happens some times. But that team was a contender.
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All of this.
 
NUMBERICA said:
There's a longer post to be written about this, but I think fans are struggling to even like this team. Sure, some of that is expectations, but watching this team be so good and then fall apart in large part because they don't hustle, D up, or play for each other is really dispiriting.

If you want an example of the opposite, the '18 team cannot be beat. I didn't care that they had almost no chance, I loved that team.
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So you don’t care if we have a chance of winning the title as long as we are likable? Yeah, **** that lol.
 
It is hilarious to me how almost entitled a lot of people sound on here. We could be the ****ing Kings or the Pistons who have not made the playoffs in YEARS.
 
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