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Are presidents above the law?

The Thriller

Well-Known Member
Donald’s lawyers and republicans seem to think so. We are quickly headed towards a constitutional crisis. Whether it will result in impeachment or dictatorship is very much up in the air.

Can a president be forced to testify (does subpoena power apply to presidents?

Can a president be indicted for a crime or must he/she be impeached first?

Can the president pardon himself/herself?

If Trump keeps pardoning people it’s clearly a message to those related in his own legal problems who are thinking about flipping. Let’s be honest, he’s not just issuing out all of these pardons recently without going through the traditional process out of the goodness of his heart. It’s an attempt to thwart Mueller and obstruct justice.

What do you think?

WASHINGTON (AP) — President Donald Trump's lawyers composed a secret 20-page letter to special counsel Robert Mueller to assert that he cannot be forced to testify while arguing that he could not have committed obstruction because he has absolute authority over all federal investigations.

https://www.deseretnews.com/article...rs-letter-to-mueller-challenges-subpoena.html

And today:

 
Can a president be forced to testify (does subpoena power apply to presidents?

Can a president be indicted for a crime or must he/she be impeached first?

Can the president pardon himself/herself?

I'll go with

Yes, can definitely be forced to testify.

Must be impeached first

No, absolutely not

From what I've read, all three questions would likely go to the Supreme Court if it comes to it, but that's the way I think they would rule, and that's the way I think they SHOULD rule.
 
President Trump Thinks He Is a King
By Harry Litman

Mr. Litman is a former United States attorney and deputy assistant attorney general.

  • June 3, 2018
Im
UglS7sOuAQ0o7ITq-1LU5Lzp11QDPlev7Bv_W1T-Cv8geccJGgQduwzJRyt8AO-lPB1sIcDFcYmweqmDdojUDFbc8SjKkY4K9vvwxyW7Eaq5cCoIiz7OKDpxFNm_AXte9Xlx4ykEJ2gdR7dxKqFPnrTW8ZaswPdaOymEvxm4RipnzSBcskPJe3uzphx1-PwM2DCi7BK_JKswMR1YBksCYq4udmSueZqSgMykQ3aNN-s9V_UbW6B012QnY6SLrpg=s0-d-e1-ft

President Trump on Thursday.CreditDoug Mills/The New York Times

The president believes he is above the law. That’s the takeaway from the confidential 20-page memo sent by President Trump’s lawyers to the special counsel, Robert Mueller, published over the weekend by The Times. And it’s the same sentiment that Rudy Giuliani expressed on Sunday when he suggested that Mr. Trump has the power to pardon himself.

The central claim of the legal memorandum is that it is impossible for the president to illegally obstruct any aspect of the investigation into Russia’s election meddling. That’s because, as president, Mr. Trump has the constitutional power to terminate the inquiry or pardon his way out of it. Therefore — and this is the key and indefensible point — he cannot obstruct justice by exercising this authority “no matter his motivation.”

This understanding of presidential power is radical and absolutist. It is also unsound and almost certain to be sharply rejected should it ever be proffered in court.

Even granting the contention that Mr. Trump could simply terminate the investigation, it is a non sequitur to argue, as the president’s lawyers do, that as a consequence he cannot obstruct it. Imagine, for example, that the worst version of facts proves true: that Trump fired the F.B.I. director, James Comey, tried to fire Mr. Mueller, constructed a false account of the June 2016 Russia meeting, and tried to force Attorney General Jeff Sessions to reverse his recusal decision that was driven by Justice Department policy, all to protect his own skin and his family’s fortune.

If this were the case, the elements of obstruction — in brief, the interference or attempted interference with an official proceeding, such as a grand jury investigation — would be plainly met. Most important, the president would have acted with corrupt intent as it is well understood under the law.

No tenable account of executive power holds that a president’s purposes in exercising powers accorded under Article II, “to take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed,” have no import. If it were otherwise — if the president had the authority to use his constitutional powers for any reason — it would follow that he could accept a bribe for doing an official act, or, more saliently, extend a pardon to keep a witness from testifying. This would very clearly violate the maxim that the president is not above the law.

If this sounds like legal theorizing, just consider the fact that Mr. Trump’s position is soundly contradicted by the Richard Nixon case. Under Mr. Trump’s view, Nixon would not have been guilty of obstruction for ordering the F.B.I. to stand down on the investigation of the Watergate burglars or paying off the defendants to keep them quiet.

Subsequent investigations into alleged abuses of presidential power — Iran-contra as well as Whitewater — took it as accepted law that the president is capable of obstructing justice. And while the case of the president can present challenging legal and practical questions of enforcement, both because the president is the head of the executive branch and because of the political levers he can pull, there is scant support among constitutional scholars or in the case law for the president’s drastic argument.

The second pillar of the letter submitted by Mr. Trump’s lawyers to Mr. Mueller is that he is too busy running the country to sit for an interview. Relatedly, they argue, forcing him to testify “demeans the office of the president before the world.”

Here Mr. Trump’s position run completely afoul of another presidential precedent: that of Bill Clinton. Mr. Clinton argued to the Supreme Court that the demands of sitting for a deposition in the Paula Jones case would leave him unable to discharge satisfactorily his unique constitutional responsibilities. The Supreme Court rejected the argument unanimously, and Mr. Clinton was forced to testify, initiating an indecorous process that led to his impeachment.

The decision was so resounding, and the precedent so apposite, that it’s puzzling that Mr. Trump’s lawyers would even attempt to make it a main plank of their argument to the special counsel. Perhaps they are relying on the distinction between a civil and a criminal deposition, which no president has been ordered to sit for. But it is strained to argue that the fact of the criminal investigation would make Mr. Trump’s testimony either be more time-consuming or more demeaning than was Mr. Clinton’s.

Mr. Trump’s lawyers finally offer a factual argument, that he could not have intentionally impeded the F.B.I.’s investigation because he did not know that his national security adviser, Michael Flynn, was under investigation when he asked Mr. Comey if he could “see his way clear to letting it go.”

First of all, Mr. Mueller may or may not see the facts in the same way; we don’t know yet. But what we do know is that even if Mr. Trump’s point were factually accurate, it would not foreclose an obstruction of justice charge.

All three of Mr. Trump’s pillars of defense support no weight. Mr. Mueller may have practical or policy reasons for staying his hand in finding obstruction, but he needn’t worry about the proffered legal impediments. They are all losers.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/03/opinion/mueller-trump-executive-power.html
 
In two tweets this Monday morn, Trump claimed he had the "absolute right" to pardon himself. In a follow up tweet, he claimed the appointment of a special council was "unconstitutional":

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/06/04/trump-i-have-the-absolute-right-to-pardon-myself.html

Here, the argument is presented that a president can pardon himself even if no charges have been filed against him. (Of course it remains to be determined if a sitting president can be charged with a crime to begin with. Most don't seem to believe Mueller will test that possibility).

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/commentary-can-president-donald-trump-pardon-himself-yes/

"Another former DOJ official, Andrew McCarthy, agrees with the legal consensus that a president can pardon himself, and goes even farther. He notes that Trump need not wait to be charged with a crime before issuing a pardon:

"After President Nixon resigned, President Ford pardoned him even though he had not been indicted. President Lincoln mass-pardoned Confederate soldiers and sympathizers, and President Carter mass-pardoned Vietnam draft evaders. Thus, the fact that special counsel Mueller has not, and may never, file criminal charges would not prevent President Trump from issuing pardons," McCarthy writes."
 
"Another former DOJ official, Andrew McCarthy, agrees with the legal consensus that a president can pardon himself, and goes even farther. He notes that Trump need not wait to be charged with a crime before issuing a pardon:

"After President Nixon resigned, President Ford pardoned him even though he had not been indicted. President Lincoln mass-pardoned Confederate soldiers and sympathizers, and President Carter mass-pardoned Vietnam draft evaders. Thus, the fact that special counsel Mueller has not, and may never, file criminal charges would not prevent President Trump from issuing pardons," McCarthy writes."

These examples all seem very different than pardoning ones self. Can anyone ELI5 why someone might see these actions equal to excusing an investigation into yourself?

Edit: found this.
https://www.justice.gov/file/20856/download
 
Last edited:
These examples all seem very different than pardoning ones self. Can anyone ELI5 why someone might see these actions equal to excusing an investigation into yourself?

Edit: found this.
https://www.justice.gov/file/20856/download
I am definitely not a lawyer, but the idea that a president can essentially act as his own judge seems to be a pretty clear violation of the separation of powers.

Not that I expected anything less from Trump, but it is wild to see him loudly proclaim he is above the law and have millions of Americans (and more than a few elected officials I'm sure) be totally on board with that.
 
I think it's time to amend the Constitution to address this. Obviously (I would ****ing hope) this is not how our government is intended to work. We fought a revolution to rid ourselves of a King and to make ourselves a nation of laws.
 
I think it's time to amend the Constitution to address this. Obviously (I would ****ing hope) this is not how our government is intended to work. We fought a revolution to rid ourselves of a King and to make ourselves a nation of laws.

*Highfive*

I hate the idea of adjusting the Constitution to include what should be common sense. I think if it did get to that, I'd consider leaving. I don't want to live in a country that writes out our future in "stupidest case scenario" format.
 
*Highfive*

I hate the idea of adjusting the Constitution to include what should be common sense. I think if it did get to that, I'd consider leaving. I don't want to live in a country that writes out our future in "stupidest case scenario" format.
Donald Trump is the Stupidest case scenario, unfortunately.
 
Donald Trump is the Stupidest case scenario, unfortunately.

Let's not let our feckless congress off the hook here. The reason there is nothing in the constitution specifically outlining whether the president can pardon himself isn't because they didn't think one would try someday, but that they expected congress would step up and prevent such a naked power grab. They show no signs at this point that would be the case.

I was discussing this topic with some of my Trump supporting family members and their argument came down to their belief that Trump could pardon himself, and the check on the presidency would be that of impeachment, which will never happen so take that libs MAGA etc.

America is in a really bad place right now.
 
I doubt he would ever pardon himself. I think he just enjoys messing with the wingnuts on the left who always repay him by imagining the worst possible motive and outcome to everything he says, and then getting into a contest with one another to see who can overreact by the largest amount. Trump Derangement Syndrome is a real thing. I hope he signs a no nuke treaty with NK, not only because it would be a huge positive for the world, but also because it will be fun watching the heads of the wingnuts implode.
 
I doubt he would ever pardon himself. I think he just enjoys messing with the wingnuts on the left who always repay him by imagining the worst possible motive and outcome to everything he says, and then getting into a contest with one another to see who can overreact by the largest amount. Trump Derangement Syndrome is a real thing. I hope he signs a no nuke treaty with NK, not only because it would be a huge positive for the world, but also because it will be fun watching the heads of the wingnuts implode.

Yeah how stupid all us libs are to take the words of the president seriously when he says he has the power of a dictator. You've really got this whole thing figured out.

Edited to add:

I've spent today talking to family that until 2016 were fairly mainstream Republicans. They argued that in order to prevent a silent coup by the 'deep state' the president might have to place himself above the rule of law. That in order to protect liberty, Trump may have to subvert it. That was the point of him bringing up the prospect of a self pardon, to introduce the idea to his base and get them on board. Sadly it seems to be working.
 
Last edited:
President Trump Thinks He Is a King
By Harry Litman

Mr. Litman is a former United States attorney and deputy assistant attorney general.

  • June 3, 2018
Im
UglS7sOuAQ0o7ITq-1LU5Lzp11QDPlev7Bv_W1T-Cv8geccJGgQduwzJRyt8AO-lPB1sIcDFcYmweqmDdojUDFbc8SjKkY4K9vvwxyW7Eaq5cCoIiz7OKDpxFNm_AXte9Xlx4ykEJ2gdR7dxKqFPnrTW8ZaswPdaOymEvxm4RipnzSBcskPJe3uzphx1-PwM2DCi7BK_JKswMR1YBksCYq4udmSueZqSgMykQ3aNN-s9V_UbW6B012QnY6SLrpg=s0-d-e1-ft

President Trump on Thursday.CreditDoug Mills/The New York Times

The president believes he is above the law. That’s the takeaway from the confidential 20-page memo sent by President Trump’s lawyers to the special counsel, Robert Mueller, published over the weekend by The Times. And it’s the same sentiment that Rudy Giuliani expressed on Sunday when he suggested that Mr. Trump has the power to pardon himself.

The central claim of the legal memorandum is that it is impossible for the president to illegally obstruct any aspect of the investigation into Russia’s election meddling. That’s because, as president, Mr. Trump has the constitutional power to terminate the inquiry or pardon his way out of it. Therefore — and this is the key and indefensible point — he cannot obstruct justice by exercising this authority “no matter his motivation.”

This understanding of presidential power is radical and absolutist. It is also unsound and almost certain to be sharply rejected should it ever be proffered in court.

Even granting the contention that Mr. Trump could simply terminate the investigation, it is a non sequitur to argue, as the president’s lawyers do, that as a consequence he cannot obstruct it. Imagine, for example, that the worst version of facts proves true: that Trump fired the F.B.I. director, James Comey, tried to fire Mr. Mueller, constructed a false account of the June 2016 Russia meeting, and tried to force Attorney General Jeff Sessions to reverse his recusal decision that was driven by Justice Department policy, all to protect his own skin and his family’s fortune.

If this were the case, the elements of obstruction — in brief, the interference or attempted interference with an official proceeding, such as a grand jury investigation — would be plainly met. Most important, the president would have acted with corrupt intent as it is well understood under the law.

No tenable account of executive power holds that a president’s purposes in exercising powers accorded under Article II, “to take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed,” have no import. If it were otherwise — if the president had the authority to use his constitutional powers for any reason — it would follow that he could accept a bribe for doing an official act, or, more saliently, extend a pardon to keep a witness from testifying. This would very clearly violate the maxim that the president is not above the law.

If this sounds like legal theorizing, just consider the fact that Mr. Trump’s position is soundly contradicted by the Richard Nixon case. Under Mr. Trump’s view, Nixon would not have been guilty of obstruction for ordering the F.B.I. to stand down on the investigation of the Watergate burglars or paying off the defendants to keep them quiet.

Subsequent investigations into alleged abuses of presidential power — Iran-contra as well as Whitewater — took it as accepted law that the president is capable of obstructing justice. And while the case of the president can present challenging legal and practical questions of enforcement, both because the president is the head of the executive branch and because of the political levers he can pull, there is scant support among constitutional scholars or in the case law for the president’s drastic argument.

The second pillar of the letter submitted by Mr. Trump’s lawyers to Mr. Mueller is that he is too busy running the country to sit for an interview. Relatedly, they argue, forcing him to testify “demeans the office of the president before the world.”

Here Mr. Trump’s position run completely afoul of another presidential precedent: that of Bill Clinton. Mr. Clinton argued to the Supreme Court that the demands of sitting for a deposition in the Paula Jones case would leave him unable to discharge satisfactorily his unique constitutional responsibilities. The Supreme Court rejected the argument unanimously, and Mr. Clinton was forced to testify, initiating an indecorous process that led to his impeachment.

The decision was so resounding, and the precedent so apposite, that it’s puzzling that Mr. Trump’s lawyers would even attempt to make it a main plank of their argument to the special counsel. Perhaps they are relying on the distinction between a civil and a criminal deposition, which no president has been ordered to sit for. But it is strained to argue that the fact of the criminal investigation would make Mr. Trump’s testimony either be more time-consuming or more demeaning than was Mr. Clinton’s.

Mr. Trump’s lawyers finally offer a factual argument, that he could not have intentionally impeded the F.B.I.’s investigation because he did not know that his national security adviser, Michael Flynn, was under investigation when he asked Mr. Comey if he could “see his way clear to letting it go.”

First of all, Mr. Mueller may or may not see the facts in the same way; we don’t know yet. But what we do know is that even if Mr. Trump’s point were factually accurate, it would not foreclose an obstruction of justice charge.

All three of Mr. Trump’s pillars of defense support no weight. Mr. Mueller may have practical or policy reasons for staying his hand in finding obstruction, but he needn’t worry about the proffered legal impediments. They are all losers.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/03/opinion/mueller-trump-executive-power.html

King of excrement
 
Yeah how stupid all us libs are to take the words of the president seriously when he says he has the power of a dictator. You've really got this whole thing figured out.
Did he actually say he has the power of a dictator, or are you just trying to win the overreaction contest?
 
Did he actually say he has the power of a dictator, or are you just trying to win the overreaction contest?
To claim he has an absolute right to self pardoning is dictatorial. That would literally mean that he believes himself to be above the law. It's not overreacting to say that if he tried to do it, and congress did not move to impeach, that we would be in a full blown constitutional crisis, and the Republic would be at risk.
 


This response by Ted Cruz is a great example of why I believe the GOP controlled congress would almost certainly let Trump get away with it. It took him 18 ****ing seconds of silence to come up with ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ when asked if the president can pardon himself.
 
Curious, is Trump still being accused of collusion with Russia during his campaign? Is that what he's threatening to pardon?
 
Yeah how stupid all us libs are to take the words of the president seriously when he says he has the power of a dictator. You've really got this whole thing figured out.

Edited to add:

I've spent today talking to family that until 2016 were fairly mainstream Republicans. They argued that in order to prevent a silent coup by the 'deep state' the president might have to place himself above the rule of law. That in order to protect liberty, Trump may have to subvert it. That was the point of him bringing up the prospect of a self pardon, to introduce the idea to his base and get them on board. Sadly it seems to be working.

Your family sounds like a thrilling group of folks. I'm almost certain the citizens, military, and Republican party would go along with something so absurd, right?

Trump pardoning himself and not being removed from office would leave us effectively with 1 party for at least a decade.

This stuff is silliness.
 
I doubt he would ever pardon himself. I think he just enjoys messing with the wingnuts on the left who always repay him by imagining the worst possible motive and outcome to everything he says, and then getting into a contest with one another to see who can overreact by the largest amount. Trump Derangement Syndrome is a real thing. I hope he signs a no nuke treaty with NK, not only because it would be a huge positive for the world, but also because it will be fun watching the heads of the wingnuts implode.

Hahahha. Yep, that Trump. He’s such a jokester. He’s just having so much fun with the left.
 
Yeah how stupid all us libs are to take the words of the president seriously when he says he has the power of a dictator. You've really got this whole thing figured out.

Edited to add:

I've spent today talking to family that until 2016 were fairly mainstream Republicans. They argued that in order to prevent a silent coup by the 'deep state' the president might have to place himself above the rule of law. That in order to protect liberty, Trump may have to subvert it. That was the point of him bringing up the prospect of a self pardon, to introduce the idea to his base and get them on board. Sadly it seems to be working.
Edited to add:

Sounds like you live in a family of whack jobs.
 
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