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Basis for Trump Appeal: Authoritarianism

Stoked said:
America is exceptional. I can happily say that despite our faults and mean it in a way that does not detract from other nations. For example, I think Japan, Russia, Cuba, Madagascar, Australia, Kuwait, Brazil...we are all exceptional.
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If everyone is exceptional, doesn't the concept lose its meaning then?
 
JimLes said:
If everyone is exceptional, doesn't the concept lose its meaning then?
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I don't think so, we are not all the same. We all have different strengths, culture and heritage. We can all be exceptional in our own ways.
 
Stoked said:
I don't think so, we are not all the same. We all have different strengths, culture and heritage. We can all be exceptional in our own ways.
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Exactly!

For instance, Americans are exceptional while Canadians are exceptional bitches.
 
dalamon said:
Now, Joe, imagine if a German politician emerged saying things like this:




Just like Germany needs to maintain its apologies for past transgressions, America must do the same. Not doing so might lend some credibility among the insecure hicks of America, but it will further damage international relationships with foreign nations worldwide.

You tell me which tradeoff is more significant. I simply cannot understand why you're so sensitive about Barack Obama admitting the transgressions of America. It really is rather bizarre.
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I listed things other than authoritarianism that I believe Trump supporters are reacting positively to. Do you believe that Americans are likely to gravitate toward a candidate whose opinion is like yours, or who says things like Trump? You obviously don't believe it's justified, but in my opinion the vast majority of Americans love this country and do not believe we owe everyone an apology. You are obsessed with what you see as American transgressions. Most Americans who I know do not feel that way about this country at all.
 
Joe Bagadonuts said:
You are obsessed with what you see as American transgressions. Most Americans who I know do not feel that way about this country at all.
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Again, exceptionalism, and again, that's what the problem is. You can't possibly believe that the USA does not owe an apology to the people of Iraq, to the people of Afghanistan, to the people of Libya, to the people of Syria. You can't say invading Iraq was a bad idea, then turn around and say you Iraqi people aren't owed an apology. Especially when at one point, more than 3 in 4 Americans support the invasion.
 
JimLes said:
Again, exceptionalism, and again, that's what the problem is. You can't possibly believe that the USA does not owe an apology to the people of Iraq, to the people of Afghanistan, to the people of Libya, to the people of Syria. You can't say invading Iraq was a bad idea, then turn around and say you Iraqi people aren't owed an apology. Especially when at one point, more than 3 in 4 Americans support the invasion.
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Yes, no, "yes and yes along with everyone else". In the same order.

Making mistakes does not prevent exceptionalism. But I do think America needs to pull back to its formal allies and extend no further. After a few years a different tune will be sung.
 
JimLes said:
Again, exceptionalism, and again, that's what the problem is. You can't possibly believe that the USA does not owe an apology to the people of Iraq, to the people of Afghanistan, to the people of Libya, to the people of Syria. You can't say invading Iraq was a bad idea, then turn around and say you Iraqi people aren't owed an apology. Especially when at one point, more than 3 in 4 Americans support the invasion.
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American exceptionalism is what keeps Americans from truly exercising their power. American power is insane and that power is what leads to transgressions. If you remove American exceptionalism, the thing that compels America to try and behave morally/with principle, the world would be in serious trouble. American cynicism is probably what you should be worried about. When American leaders no longer have to come up with a moral justification and instead can claim national interest alone America will become a lot more aggressive.
 
Joe Bagadonuts said:
I listed things other than authoritarianism that I believe Trump supporters are reacting positively to. Do you believe that Americans are likely to gravitate toward a candidate whose opinion is like yours, or who says things like Trump? You obviously don't believe it's justified, but in my opinion the vast majority of Americans love this country and do not believe we owe everyone an apology. You are obsessed with what you see as American transgressions. Most Americans who I know do not feel that way about this country at all.
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You didn't answer my question-- would you feel comfortable with a German politician being held to the same requests of a nationalistic German populace?
 
franklin said:
JimLes is a Dalamon alt.
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Still following me around eh?

Seeing as you're avoiding substantive conversation with me (yet again), let's hear some more complaints about how I'm chasing everyone away pls. Would make my week.
 
dalamon said:
You didn't answer my question-- would you feel comfortable with a German politician being held to the same requests of a nationalistic German populace?
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I would. They've already acknowledged their transgressions. They lost a war, had their infrastructure decimated. They were a divided, conquered nation. If at this point they don't feel like apologizing I wouldn't hold it against them.
 
♪alt13 said:
American exceptionalism is what keeps Americans from truly exercising their power. American power is insane and that power is what leads to transgressions. If you remove American exceptionalism, the thing that compels America to try and behave morally/with principle, the world would be in serious trouble. American cynicism is probably what you should be worried about. When American leaders no longer have to come up with a moral justification and instead can claim national interest alone America will become a lot more aggressive.
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Exactly.

America alone has altruistically created a peaceful and safe world for billions of people. We will continue shouldering the burden until the entire world is peaceful, safe, and prosperous.

In 200 years, the world with look back with admiration on our foreign policy, and embarrassment on those who currently want America to apologize for standing up for basic human rights.
 
Has the United States government always supported basic human rights? When I was in grammar school and high school, we were taught that the United States was always on the side of "good". We could readily be identified. We were the ones wearing the white hats in any conflict. We stood for "truth, justice, and the American Way". Actually, that phrase might have originated in the old Superman TV series, lol, can't quite remember. But, I think a closer look demonstrates we've pretty much acted in our own self interest.
And we have supported some pretty brutal dictatorships...

https://www.alternet.org/world/7-fascist-regimes-enthusiastically-supported-america
 
Red said:
Has the United States government always supported basic human rights? When I was in grammar school and high school, we were taught that the United States was always on the side of "good". We could readily be identified. We were the ones wearing the white hats in any conflict. We stood for "truth, justice, and the American Way". Actually, that phrase might have originated in the old Superman TV series, lol, can't quite remember. But, I think a closer look demonstrates we've pretty much acted in our own self interest.
And we have supported some pretty brutal dictatorships...

https://www.alternet.org/world/7-fascist-regimes-enthusiastically-supported-america
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One mans "Freedom and Democracy" is another mans "Jihad in the name Allah." It just depends on what side you're on. There is a fine line between patriotism and nationalism, and it seems the current political climate has further radicalized the far right in this regard. The ends do not always justify the means, and America's policy in the middle east is so far a giant failure and cost the region, and ourselves, many human lives. This fairy tale that we're some sort of savior that nationalists are gripping on to is nothing more than that; a cute story devoid of nuance and completely narcissistic. Whatever good will and karma the U.S. garnered from WWII had been completely pissed away since.

"The road to hell was paved with good intentions."
 
dalamon said:
You didn't answer my question-- would you feel comfortable with a German politician being held to the same requests of a nationalistic German populace?
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I do not think modern Germany has anything to be embarrassed about. The Germans of today are not responsible for the Holocaust or anything like it. So yes, I would feel comfortable with a German politician making the statement you posted.

I want to be careful not to let you completely convolute this conversation, though. I have said repeatedly that I am not a fan of Trump. I believe he has many, many, many flaws as a candidate. Just because I made a post in this thread saying that I think his appeal is much more complex than the authoritarian argument does not mean I am willing or interested in defending Trump in any way.
 
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