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Blow the !@$%!%#$ Team Up

Just listened to Tony Jones on Checketts show. He said there will definitely be significant changes to the roster and the rotation next season. He also said that he can definitively say that the Jazz want to be a playoff team next season and that they don't want to take a step back... they won't be blowing it up and completely re-building, he said the word he would use for what they want to do in the offseason is pivot.

Checketts said he's heard from people associated with the team that they may lean into catering to Donovan even more this offseason and doing everything they can to make him happy...Tony said they're definitely not trading Donovan this offseason and don't anticipate him asking out. He said the Jazz have already done a lot for Donovan and have let him know that this is his team and they're going to build around him. Said they would like to put players around him that cand defend, shoot and have some length and athleticism, similar to the types of players GS has put around Steph.
 
Jingled said:
Just listened to Tony Jones on Checketts show. He said there will definitely be significant changes to the roster and the rotation next season. He also said that he can definitively say that the Jazz want to be a playoff team next season and that they don't want to take a step back... they won't be blowing it up and completely re-building, he said the word he would use for what they want to do in the offseason is pivot.

Checketts said he's heard from people associated with the team that they may lean into catering to Donovan even more this offseason and doing everything they can to make him happy...Tony said they're definitely not trading Donovan this offseason and don't anticipate him asking out. He said the Jazz have already done a lot for Donovan and have let him know that this is his team and they're going to build around him. Said they would like to put players around him that cand defend, shoot and have some length and athleticism, similar to the types of players GS has put around Steph.
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Building around Donovan is serious waste of ****ing time. And giving him more and more control is embarrassing to think about.

If this results in Gobert being traded for meh and Quin sticking around then hopefully I find something better to burn my bandwidth on. Those will be some garbage years.

Tony usually has good intel, but it's important to remember that he's the organization's mouthpiece. He's never the first to report bad news. For all we know, he's either working optics and/or being used to take the pulse on ideas (he doesn't have to be in on the plan, either). I just can't see Ainge being high on the plan and I can't see why Smith would bring him in unless he was given A LOT of power (especially since he was brought in mid-season for no reason I can understand... besides putting the team on notice).
 
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NUMBERICA said:
Building around Donovan is serious waste of ****ing time. And giving him more and more control is embarrassing to think about.

If this results in Gobert being traded for meh and Quin sticking around then hopefully I find something better to burn my bandwidth on. Those will be some garbage years.
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We shouldn't judge it before we see what moves are made and what the results are.

We do know what we have tried hasn't worked. And going scorched earth is dumb.

Sent from my SM-A516U using JazzFanz mobile app
 
LoPo said:
We shouldn't judge it before we see what moves are made and what the results are.

We do know what we have tried hasn't worked. And going scorched earth is dumb.

Sent from my SM-A516U using JazzFanz mobile app
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Why is it dumb? ****ing around longer means greater (almost exponential) opportunity costs incurred:

-To start: because of the play-in and desperate bottom-dwellers to get in, fewer teams are tanking than literally ever before. This shrinks the pool of potential win-now players which the Jazz would continue to be restricted to. That will constrain the value of whatever paltry assets the Jazz can use, and might force them to touch assets they should never think about (another lightly protected 1st-rounder in a year they might be rebuilding).
-Jazz are already limited on any more assets to burn. I am not too confident in Rudy's returning value and he'd obviously be the best piece to net returning value (which instead of nebulous future assets, would need to be win-now players, BUT COMING FROM WIN-NOW TEAMS. That's a bad trading partner).
-Will they have the stones to trade Mike and/or Bogey? And what win-now players are they going to get in return (it's the same problem as above), especially since Mike is looking cooked (this will be the last year to hope for netting value) and Bogey is expiring (which limits his value to a team that wants him for basketball reasons and not an expiring contract). Any of Rudy, Mike, or Bogey would be gets for a desperate team with bad management and/or future assets to burn... but we wouldn't be so much in the market for those at that point.
-All of this to descend into a wood-chipper: the aforementioned more teams than ever going for it and more teams finally getting healthy that will be WAY better than the Jazz (the Nuggets and Clippers come to mind, for starters).
-Lost opportunity to get into the top-10 of the draft for another year. Probably will be just good enough to convey the ****ing Favors pick in the late lottery if they stay that course.

I don't see the upside. I really don't. I don't know why anyone would think substantial improvement is reasonably possible or why Donovan would want to stay through his next contract anyway. Dragging this out in that way seems dumb to me, though there is the argument of grifting fans for a few years for greater revenues.

I'm really not throwing shade, but in my view, the only way to net surplus assets to re-tool for a win-now build is trading Donovan. And I'm not even endorsing that.
 
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Jingled said:
Just listened to Tony Jones on Checketts show. He said there will definitely be significant changes to the roster and the rotation next season. He also said that he can definitively say that the Jazz want to be a playoff team next season and that they don't want to take a step back... they won't be blowing it up and completely re-building, he said the word he would use for what they want to do in the offseason is pivot.

Checketts said he's heard from people associated with the team that they may lean into catering to Donovan even more this offseason and doing everything they can to make him happy...Tony said they're definitely not trading Donovan this offseason and don't anticipate him asking out. He said the Jazz have already done a lot for Donovan and have let him know that this is his team and they're going to build around him. Said they would like to put players around him that cand defend, shoot and have some length and athleticism, similar to the types of players GS has put around Steph.
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This confirms my worst fears. Donovan has not proven he’s good enough to get the Lilliard treatment but he’s getting it any way.

If Rudy is moved, it’s going to be because Mitchell wants it. Then when the corresponding moves to reorient the defense fail, he’s going to get mad and leave. ****.
 
I'll make a thread for this when the season is over, but I wanted to throw this out:

http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=y6rqg487 or
http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=y2o3stkk

Jazz out:
-Quin
-Conley
-Bogey
-Royce
-JC
-Gay

Jazz in:
-Jerami Grant
-Christian Wood
-Russell Westbrook (pure salary, don't even allow him to report)

Lakers out:
-Westbrook
-2027 and 2029 unprotected 1st

Lakers in:
-Quin
-Conley
-Bogey
-one of Gay, Royce, or NAW

Houston out:
-Wood

Houston in:
-two of the remaining of Gay/Royce/NAW
-Lakers 1st

Detroit out:
-Jerami Grant

Detroit in:
-JC
-Doke if they want him
-Lakers 1st

Hire Frank Vogel. See who you can sign. Gary Harris would be cool but that's probably a pipe dream. Hopefully Ingles and Rubio for fun/the locker room because the chemistry is gonna be rouuugh.

Forrest? (someone has to be the guy that Ds up and doesn't take shots) / JB (the new JC)
Donovan / JB /
Grant / Paschall? (or some signing if you let him walk)
Wood / Grant
Gobert / Wood

Something this ridiculous feels like the only way to retool to me. Doesn't necessarily have to be this, but flipping win-now guys for picks from a desperate team and then pairing those picks with salary of ours to flip for a good young player unlikely to re-sign with their team (that is likely ****** or tanking anyway). Maybe Wood or Grant (or whoever of this type) doesn't re-sign, then you're ****ed.
 
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NUMBERICA said:
Why is it dumb? ****ing around longer means greater (almost exponential) opportunity costs incurred:

-To start: because of the play-in and desperate bottom-dwellers to get in, fewer teams are tanking than literally ever before. This shrinks the pool of potential win-now players which the Jazz would continue to be restricted to. That will constrain the value of whatever paltry assets the Jazz can use, and might force them to touch assets they should never think about (another lightly protected 1st-rounder in a year they might be rebuilding).
-Jazz are already limited on any more assets to burn. I am not too confident in Rudy's returning value and he'd obviously be the best piece to net returning value (which instead of nebulous future assets, would need to be win-now players, BUT COMING FROM WIN-NOW TEAMS. That's a bad trading partner).
-Will they have the stones to trade Mike and/or Bogey? And what win-now players are they going to get in return (it's the same problem as above), especially since Mike is looking cooked (this will be the last year to hope for netting value) and Bogey is expiring (which limits his value to a team that wants him for basketball reasons and not an expiring contract). Any of Rudy, Mike, or Bogey would be gets for a desperate team with bad management and/or future assets to burn... but we wouldn't be so much in the market for those at that point.
-All of this to descend into a wood-chipper: the aforementioned more teams than ever going for it and more teams finally getting healthy that will be WAY better than the Jazz (the Nuggets and Clippers come to mind, for starters).
-Lost opportunity to get into the top-10 of the draft for another year. Probably will be just good enough to convey the ****ing Favors pick in the late lottery if they stay that course.

I don't see the upside. I really don't. I don't know why anyone would think substantial improvement is reasonably possible or why Donovan would want to stay through his next contract anyway. Dragging this out in that way seems dumb to me, though there is the argument of grifting fans for a few years for greater revenues.

I'm really not throwing shade, but in my view, the only way to net surplus assets to re-tool for a win-now build is trading Donovan. And I'm not even endorsing that.
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You have valid concerns and make valid points. I break it down like this:

For as good as he is, I have never thought the path to a title would go through Rudy Gobert. He's a good player, but playoff basketball doesn't adapt to guys like him. He has to adapt to playoff basketball. Rudy is better, but there is a reason why Adams can't play for Memphis right now. It's the same reason why Jokic will never win a title as the main guy. Probably not Embiid either. Bigs don't rule the game anymore.

NBA titles are won by wings and guards. They are won by perimeter defending and switching. Flexibility. Relentless scoring.

Donovan is struggling right now, but I still think he's the best player we have had since Stockton and Malone. The kid is special. I think it's crazy to think we can just find another guy like him. We have had 30+ drafts since Stockton and Malone, and we have only drafted 3 truly great players (Deron, Rudy and Don). It's arrogant to think we will draft others so easily.

Trade Rudy for guys that support a vision around Don to play a style that works in the playoffs. Make a concrete plan to add a free agent in summer 2023. Use DWade. Do whatever it takes. Build around Don like how we built around Deron but do it better.

Trading Don sends us to oblivion. There is no guarantee we return from there anytime soon.

Sent from my SM-A516U using JazzFanz mobile app
 
LoPo said:
Trading Don sends us to oblivion. There is no guarantee we return from there anytime soon.
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Not if you keep Gobert, or you manage it well and do it with purpose and planning (if you trade both). You're right on the latter but this might just be a matter of taste: I cannot stomach the mediocrity and persistent rumors and drama and bull **** that is sure to come, but I'm sure there are bunch of casuals that would enjoy watching Donovan go off on a .500 team for a few years then probably just leave (putting us in a WAY worse and likely longer rebuilding situation).

In any situation Quin has to go and I'm sure everyone here agrees on that.
 
NUMBERICA said:
Not if you keep Gobert, or you manage it well and do it with purpose and planning (if you trade both). You're right on the latter but this might just be a matter of taste: I cannot stomach the mediocrity and persistent rumors and drama and bull **** that is sure to come, but I'm sure there are bunch of casuals that would enjoy watching Donovan go off on a .500 team for a few years then probably just leave (putting us in a WAY worse and likely longer rebuilding situation).

In any situation Quin has to go and I'm sure everyone here agrees on that.
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Donovan’s playoff defense has also hit Trae Young levels of bad. He’s just not getting it. I don’t get the appeal of taking super limited assets and trying to duct tape something together around him. It sounds like that is what will happen though… TJ indicated they want to be playoff good next year. I’m hearing hints of Vivek in how we think “gotta make the playoffs… we are hosting the AS game… I can’t be known as the owner who tore it down… I’m the savior.”


I’m just gonna say it… no matter what ****ing happens we will be in the lotto next year.
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
Donovan’s playoff defense has also hit Trae Young levels of bad. He’s just not getting it. I don’t get the appeal of taking super limited assets and trying to duct tape something together around him. It sounds like that is what will happen though… TJ indicated they want to be playoff good next year. I’m hearing hints of Vivek in how we think “gotta make the playoffs… we are hosting the AS game… I can’t be known as the owner who tore it down… I’m the savior.”


I’m just gonna say it… no matter what ****ing happens we will be in the lotto next year.
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But if you're gonna be bad, be all the way bad. We're talking in circles here but this is god damn frustrating. I don't see Ryan having the same courage to pull the trigger (that Ainge probably wants to) as he did in hiring Ainge to spook the team mid-season. Which is so insanely stupid that I don't know if there's a word for it in our language, especially if he didn't hire him mid-season to scare the team (what did he ****ing think it would do? Why do it mid-season?).
 
NUMBERICA said:
But if you're gonna be bad, be all the way bad. We're talking in circles here but this is god damn frustrating. I don't see Ryan having the same courage to pull the trigger (that Ainge probably wants to) as he did in hiring Ainge to spook the team mid-season. Which is so insanely stupid that I don't know if there's a word for it in our language, especially if he didn't hire him mid-season to scare the team (what did he ****ing think it would do? Why do it mid-season?).
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Preaching to choir… you can draft top 6 next year and collect a ton of assets while doing it or keep Don and get some other good players and add the 12th pick next year… then you get the trade demand that will come… sounds like a **** ton of fun to me.
 
utahjazzz said:
Don't laugh. Luka Doncic explained why it's 100 % easier to score in the NBA than in the Euro League - the league where Exum is playing right now.
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Maybe they should send Simmons over there to get confidence to make wide open layups?
 
NUMBERICA said:
Not if you keep Gobert, or you manage it well and do it with purpose and planning (if you trade both). You're right on the latter but this might just be a matter of taste: I cannot stomach the mediocrity and persistent rumors and drama and bull **** that is sure to come, but I'm sure there are bunch of casuals that would enjoy watching Donovan go off on a .500 team for a few years then probably just leave (putting us in a WAY worse and likely longer rebuilding situation).

In any situation Quin has to go and I'm sure everyone here agrees on that.
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If we trade both, our recovery timeline could be many, many years. We aren't the type franchise to go after a couple bottom 4 finishes, and a new owner with DWade will never sign off on that.

As for the Don speculation, I've been saying all along that it has been overblown. Media members have to sell rumors. It's what they get paid to do.

We probably have a locker room that is split on how we should play. That's normal especially during tough times. I keep referring to it, but Rudy Gay's media statement and almost immediate removal from the lineup was pretty eye opening.

For me, I want to be entertained. What we run just isn't fun to watch. Most importantly, it doesn't work when it matters most. A retool around Don will be fun.

Sent from my SM-A516U using JazzFanz mobile app
 
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