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Which animals could you kill with no weapon?


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I find that A.I. scenario somewhat implausible. Let's examine what we mean by artificial intelligence. Arguably, we have already created many forms of super-human intelligences. Computers can beat any human at chess. They are able to remember vast amounts of information perfectly. And they outperform humans in numerous ways (thus technological unemployment). But we don't really consider that "real" intelligence. When we talk about A.I. we're talking about reverse engineering human intelligence. A non-biological human-made being that possesses human like intelligence. For all intents and purposes, that A.I. would simply be "human". As in, the knowledge required to build a human intelligence out of inorganic materials is more or less the same as the knowledge required to transform existing organic intelligences to inorganic ones.

In other words, building a general A.I. can be thought of as building human intelligence through other means. We become the A.I. We replace ourselves with a superior version of ourselves, the same way we've been doing for hundreds of millennia. After all, that's what humans do; replace the processes of biological evolution by the incomparably superior cultural and technological evolution.
Just think of how far computers have come since 1970. Now compare how much humans have evolved since 1970.

Where will computers be be in 100 more years? How about 200? How about 2000? I think we're a long way away from it, but I do not think it is implausible at all to argue that computer intelligence could ultimately rival and then exceed human intelligence in every area. If that were to happen, we, as a species, might no longer have a niche.
 
I thought this until I saw that youtuber of the mountain cat that snapped a ram's neck like it was a twix candy bar. I never want to meat a hungry cougar (pun int).

I don't want to meat one either. But I think I could at least put out its eyes before it killed me. If I could blind it I could get away from it. Rams rarely think about going for the eyes.
 
If there really is a tribe whose chief-selection process involves pitting a man against a ****ing lion, they should be appointed as world government! But I highly doubt it.
In the 1990's I went on a safari in Tanzania. It was one of the most incredible experiences of my life. I am still in contact with the guide, and he still says that our trip was the most amazing two week experience he has ever had in Africa. We had one incredible experience after another, and two of them in particular are relevant to this discussion.

First, by an incredible stroke of timing and good luck we came over a rise one morning and happened to witness a tribe of Massai warriors hunting a lion, and then even more amazingly, we witnessed the kill. I even wrote a story about it which was published in Safari Magazine. There is a ton to this story, but the most relevant to this particular discussion is that, at least on the occasion that I witnessed it (and there are no more than a handful of westerners who have ever seen this) the chiefs took all the credit, but they were in the safest position in the middle of the hunting line. The man who took the brunt of the attack was a little guy at the end of the line. We gave him medical care, but I doubt he survived. After all, the last time I saw him he was walking across the plains with gaping wounds and he had many miles to go. At the end of that journey his reward would be to sleep on the floor of a tiny hut made of cow dung and sticks. That is not an exaggeration. Yes, if he survived he would become a legend in his tribe (though no way was he going to become the chief) but the chances that he survived are near zero. So do I think the chief I met should be appointed as world government? No way!

Second, one night as a result of a series of bad decisions which I believe would make sense if I told the entire story (but which I am not going to type out right now), me and six other people found ourselves on foot with no weapon other than a dying flashlight, completely surrounded by a pack of hyenas. It was the most frightening experience of my life. The fact that we made it back to safety is a ****ing miracle. Had the hyenas attacked there is no way in hell we would have stood a chance. If I had been insane enough to take the offensive and attack one of them (as I saw someone suggest a human ought to do in another post) there is no way I would be here today to write this story that you probably don't believe anyway, but I swear to God it's the truth. What I'm saying, in case any of you don't already know it, is that wild animals are bad ***. No way you would stand a chance against them. Your only hope is that they are not hungry and therefore do not feel like fighting. You think monkeys are cute? If you got into a fight with a baboon he would disassemble you so fast you would never even know what happened (and since he would almost certainly be in a pack the scenario I just described is likely a massive under-exaggeration).
 
A pack of animals is a whole other animal.
 
Good story.

By the way, you misunderstood what I said about A.I. I don't doubt that computers exceeding human capabilities in every way will eventually be built. I just don't agree with the perspective that homo sapiens evolved into a specific niche like any other animal. I think all biology is a type of information technology, and that humanity operates through a unique mechanism. I think the species will eventually 'evolve' beyond organic biology. Thus, the distinction between A.I. and future humans is unclear.

I don't know if I'm being clear, but I can go on talking about this for hours. It is probably my favorite subject. Alas, it is getting late, and I better call it a day.
 
Just think of how far computers have come since 1970. Now compare how much humans have evolved since 1970.

Where will computers be be in 100 more years? How about 200? How about 2000? I think we're a long way away from it, but I do not think it is implausible at all to argue that computer intelligence could ultimately rival and then exceed human intelligence in every area. If that were to happen, we, as a species, might no longer have a niche.

I don't think the scope or rate of past advancement can be used to give us an idea of the scope or rate of future advancement. When a new technology is created there tends to be rapid advancement and improvement because there are a lot of low hanging fruit to be had. The wright brothers conducted their first powered flight in 1903. Just 44 years later, in 1947, Chuck Yeager broke the sound barrier. 58 years after the Wright brothers Yuri Gagarin became the first man in space. Only 66 years after that first powered flight Neil Armstrong set foot on the moon.

Now 45 years after putting man on the moon the US is building what amounts to little more than a replica of the Original Saturn 5 rocket to go back. We have, for the most part, hit a wall on the efficiency of chemical fuels. While there is exciting new ideas they are technologically a tougher nut to crack.

We are starting to see the same thing with processors. It gets increasingly difficult to make them ever smaller. Doing more processes also means using more energy and having to dissipate more heat. While there are exciting new possibilities like quantum computers technologically it's a much tougher nut to crack.

As far as destroying our "niche", I imagine that creating an intelligence that was comparable to 7 billion human minds and energy efficient enough to be capable of competing with us is very unlikely. We will probably be using technology to directly enhance our own intelligence long before that is achieved raising the bar for any mechanical competitor that we may create.
 
Good story.

By the way, you misunderstood what I said about A.I. I don't doubt that computers exceeding human capabilities in every way will eventually be built. I just don't agree with the perspective that homo sapiens evolved into a specific niche like any other animal. I think all biology is a type of information technology, and that humanity operates through a unique mechanism. I think the species will eventually 'evolve' beyond organic biology. Thus, the distinction between A.I. and future humans is unclear.

I don't know if I'm being clear, but I can go on talking about this for hours. It is probably my favorite subject. Alas, it is getting late, and I better call it a day.
Ahh. Fascinating take. I could discuss this sort of thing endlessly too. In fact, I found myself dreaming about it all night. And as many scenarios as we might come up with, the chances that we would ever hit upon the pathway that the future actually takes is exceedingly remote.
 
I don't think the scope or rate of past advancement can be used to give us an idea of the scope or rate of future advancement. When a new technology is created there tends to be rapid advancement and improvement because there are a lot of low hanging fruit to be had. The wright brothers conducted their first powered flight in 1903. Just 44 years later, in 1947, Chuck Yeager broke the sound barrier. 58 years after the Wright brothers Yuri Gagarin became the first man in space. Only 66 years after that first powered flight Neil Armstrong set foot on the moon.

Now 45 years after putting man on the moon the US is building what amounts to little more than a replica of the Original Saturn 5 rocket to go back. We have, for the most part, hit a wall on the efficiency of chemical fuels. While there is exciting new ideas they are technologically a tougher nut to crack.

We are starting to see the same thing with processors. It gets increasingly difficult to make them ever smaller. Doing more processes also means using more energy and having to dissipate more heat. While there are exciting new possibilities like quantum computers technologically it's a much tougher nut to crack.

As far as destroying our "niche", I imagine that creating an intelligence that was comparable to 7 billion human minds and energy efficient enough to be capable of competing with us is very unlikely. We will probably be using technology to directly enhance our own intelligence long before that is achieved raising the bar for any mechanical competitor that we may create.

You may be right. Your analogy about flight technology is an excellent one on its surface, and while it is true that the propulsion portion of the rocketry equation has not changed dramatically in a long time, the nature of the machine we would be sending into space is massively different. There is far more computing power in your car today than there was in the moon missions you reference. There is also a laundry list of reasons why we haven't invested heavily in the progression of rocket technology. If we were to become truly committed to space travel again I believe you would see massive improvements.

For instance, one of the factors that makes space travel so incredibly expensive is the enormous amount of fuel required to escape earth's gravity. A huge percentage of the fuel a rocket carries is literally for the purpose of lifting the weight of the fuel itself off the ground. Just take a look at the space shuttle and compare its mass to the fuel tanks it is strapped to. Watch how early in the mission these empty containers are simply discarded.

So what if we created a way to eliminate the need to carry the fuel in the rocket? There are all sorts of ways this might be possible. For instance, imagine a rocket where the fuel is delivered by an ultra-high powered ground based laser in the launch platform. We shoot power into the vehicle on a beam of light as it is needed. Think about the size of payload we could move if we solved this problem. Clearly there are a lot of obstacles to overcome to successfully do this, but do you honestly think it wouldn't be possible? I believe that if we became urgently interested in solving these problems, the way we were when it was so critical that America beat the Soviet Union to the moon, that we would make major and rapid progress.

Unfortunately we are currently much more interested in figuring out ways to identify and track terrorists and then blow them up. And it looks like that situation is going to persist for a long time because we are in no danger of running out of targets. The more of them we destroy the more urgent it appears that we expend more effort and energy on destroying more. And what is it that creates all these terrorists... Well, it turns out that blowing up terrorists plays a very big role in their creation. Hmm. It appears we are running on evil treadmill that is both destroying and creating our enemy at the same time. This looks like a fight that we cannot ever hope to win, and that we cannot ever afford to quit fighting either. Not good.

If only there was a way to bomb these heathens with education, and to plant within them the legitimate vision that if we could set aside our differences and start working for common goals we could make spectacular things happen. If anybody ever figures out a way to do something like that we could accomplish things as a society that are currently far beyond our dreams. But of course, that's all crazy talk. Educating our enemies would be impossible. It's way more productive to kill them.
 
I don't think the scope or rate of past advancement can be used to give us an idea of the scope or rate of future advancement. When a new technology is created there tends to be rapid advancement and improvement because there are a lot of low hanging fruit to be had. The wright brothers conducted their first powered flight in 1903. Just 44 years later, in 1947, Chuck Yeager broke the sound barrier. 58 years after the Wright brothers Yuri Gagarin became the first man in space. Only 66 years after that first powered flight Neil Armstrong set foot on the moon.

Now 45 years after putting man on the moon the US is building what amounts to little more than a replica of the Original Saturn 5 rocket to go back. We have, for the most part, hit a wall on the efficiency of chemical fuels. While there is exciting new ideas they are technologically a tougher nut to crack.

We are starting to see the same thing with processors. It gets increasingly difficult to make them ever smaller. Doing more processes also means using more energy and having to dissipate more heat. While there are exciting new possibilities like quantum computers technologically it's a much tougher nut to crack.

As far as destroying our "niche", I imagine that creating an intelligence that was comparable to 7 billion human minds and energy efficient enough to be capable of competing with us is very unlikely. We will probably be using technology to directly enhance our own intelligence long before that is achieved raising the bar for any mechanical competitor that we may create.

But technology have been steadily advancing (possibly exponentially) for hundreds of thousands of years, and there is no reason to expect it to suddenly stop. The problem is that you're looking at the limitation of very specific technologies to draw broad conclusions about entire categories.

The examples you gave about flight and rocketry are the classic cases found in literature about the subject. They are instructive, but also a bit deceptive. If you take "airplanes" as a category, then yes, you can show that they reached an optimal design limit, at which point their progress slowed down considerably. But that is not the best way of looking at the situation. Transportation technologies have been advancing since the dawn of humanity. From the wheel, all the way to modern hypersonic fighter jets. Since the introduction of the plane, humans have figured out how to get into space, going farther and farther each decade. Even if you consider the advancement in airplanes, I'd say wood planes that can travel at running speed to modern Boeing composite Dreamliners are impressive for just 100 years (a blink of an eye compared to the length of human history). Individual technologies do reach a limit, but I don't think technological categories do. At least not in the short term. Like Joe said in response to your post, what if fuel-less rockets were developed? Here is a link to NASA's latest test of a fuel-less system that they tested last year:

https://www.libertariannews.org/wp-...ustProductionFromanRFTestDevice-BradyEtAl.pdf

The news really shook the world of physics when it was released a couple of months ago, and numerous teams are trying to confirm and replicate the results. But that's nothing. History is long. In 1900, the greatest minds couldn't even begin to conceive of the computers we have today. The whole concept would have sounded surreal and impossible to them (despite some attempts at simple mechanical calculating machines).

Now for computers. I design computer chips for a living. The advancements that I've seen in my short career blow my mind. I don't know if Moore's Law will continue at its current pace, but it CERTAINLY will continue at some pace. People have been saying that we've run into the limits of transistor miniaturization for a couple of decades now. But Intel just announced a new fab in Israel to start their next die shrink. They envision continuing with the same silicon die shrinks until early 20s at least. After that, we've truly run into the limits of traditional transistor miniaturization in a single plane. But silicon is far from the only option, and we're WAYS away from the computerization limits imposed by the laws of physics. In my lab, we have computing prototypes that use the spin of individual particles to perform computations (called spintronics). In theory, these can be scaled to create computers that are trillions of times more powerful than anything we have. And even that is not the end of the line. And I'm talking about classical computing. Quantum computing is a whole different game.

I think you're right about the unlikeliness of competition between n A.I. and humans, but I don't think you're completely right about the reasons. For one, energy efficiency is a temporary problem. Eventually, we will have fusion power with inexhaustible fuel. Who knows what else we'll have in the future. Anti-matter power plants? Power extracted it from the vacuum itself? And that's not counting the unimaginable techniques that can be invented by superhuman A.I. The other part about enhancing our own brains is spot on. We will do so as we understand more and more about what intelligence actually is, until we ourselves become the A.I. I believe that is the most likely scenario. But who knows? As our capabilities continue to climb, the power of even a single individual to inflict damage also increases. Hopefully we'll be able to survive the malicious elements in our own species.
 
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But technology have been steadily advancing (possibly exponentially) for hundreds of thousands of years, and there is no reason to expect it to suddenly stop. The problem is that you're looking at the limitation of very specific technologies to draw broad conclusions about entire categories.

The examples you gave about flight and rocketry are the classic cases found in literature about the subject. They are instructive, but also a bit deceptive. If you take "airplanes" as a category, then yes, you can show that they reached an optimal design limit, at which point their progress slowed down considerably. But that is not the best way of looking at the situation. Transportation technologies have been advancing since the dawn of humanity. From the wheel, all the way to modern hypersonic fighter jets. Since the introduction of the plane, humans have figured out how to get into space, going farther and farther each decade. Even if you consider the advancement in airplanes, I'd say wood planes that can travel at running speed to modern Boeing composite Dreamliners are impressive for just 100 years (a blink of an eye compared to the length of human history). Individual technologies do reach a limit, but I don't think technological categories do. At least not in the short term. Like Joe said in response to your post, what if fuel-less rockets were developed? Here is a link to NASA's latest test of a fuel-less system that they tested last year:

https://www.libertariannews.org/wp-...ustProductionFromanRFTestDevice-BradyEtAl.pdf

The news really shook the world of physics when it was released a couple of months ago, and numerous teams are trying to confirm and replicate the results. But that's nothing. History is long. In 1900, the greatest minds couldn't even begin to conceive of the computers we have today. The whole concept would have sounded surreal and impossible to them (despite some attempts at simple mechanical calculating machines).

Now for computers. I design computer chips for a living. The advancements that I've seen in my short career blow my mind. I don't know if Moore's Law will continue at its current pace, but it CERTAINLY will continue at some pace. People have been saying that we've run into the limits of transistor miniaturization for a couple of decades now. But Intel just announced a new fab in Israel to start their next die shrink. They envision continuing with the same silicon die shrinks until early 20s at least. After that, we've truly run into the limits of traditional transistor miniaturization in a single plane. But silicon is far from the only option, and we're WAYS away from the computerization limits imposed by the laws of physics. In my lab, we have computing prototypes that use the spin of individual particles to perform computations (called spintronics). In theory, these can be scaled to create computers that are trillions of times more powerful than anything we have. And even that is not the end of the line. And I'm talking about classical computing. Quantum computing is a whole different game.

I think you're right about the unlikeliness of competition between n A.I. and humans, but I don't think you're completely right about the reasons. For one, energy efficiency is a temporary problem. Eventually, we will have fusion power with inexhaustible fuel. Who knows what else we'll have in the future. Anti-matter power plants? Power extracted it from the vacuum itself? And that's not counting the unimaginable techniques that can be invented by superhuman A.I. The other part about enhancing our own brains is spot on. We will do so as we understand more and more about what intelligence actually is, until we ourselves become the A.I. I believe that is the most likely scenario. But who knows? As our capabilities continue to climb, the power of even a single individual to inflict damage also increases. Hopefully we'll be able to survive the malicious elements in our own species.
I wish I was smart enough (or patient enough) to really understand that paper you linked to. Do you know of a more layman friendly version? I think they are discussing harnessing and directing the energy from movement of particles, and how the application could be used for travel in space, but certainly not for overcoming earth's gravity. I don't think they are suggesting they could create the massive amounts of power necessary for that. Regardless, it's yet another of the many fascinating breakthroughs that we continue to see.

And the rest of your post is also filled with wow moments. My brother-in-law is in the same business as you, and I have toured the Micron plant with him a couple of times. It's fascinating. In some ways I think going through the Lehi fab is a more exotic adventure than taking a trip to the moon would be. I highly recommend it to anyone who can get the opportunity.
 
Yes evolution was put in quotations as an inflammatory gesture, but really just signified that this thread was only loosely about evolution.

.....this thread has absolutely nothing to do about evolution, since all visible and scientific evidence indicates there is no such thing....other than in the figment of imagination that is perpetrated in the schools of higher learning! However, if you wanted a viewpoint on what is the top "apex predator" in the animal kingdom I would venture to say it would be the "crocodile"....those big ones from the Nile River!

If they can reach about 5 foot in length, the only thing that can kill them are humans with high powered rifles....and that is not even a sure bet, either! They can live on both land and in water.....fresh or salt.....and will eat and can digest just about anything, living or dead, fresh or rotted, large or small! Although some think and have said that the "Lion" is the king of the jungle or king of the beasts...the Bible actually says it's the "crocodile" and for good reasons! Referring to the crocodile as “Leviathan,” the Creator used this “king over all majestic wild beasts” to teach his servant Job an important lesson. Job 41:33, 34 says "There is nothing like it on the earth, A creature made to have no fear. It glares at everything that is haughty. It is king over all the majestic wild beasts.”

We've all seen those video's of the Wilder beast and Zebra's trying to cross those rivers.....but have you ever seen a Lion trying to do it? I never have!
 
Pretty sure a killer whale would eat a Nile crocodile and still be hungry. Apex predator depends on the environment. However man+technology=overall top Apex predator on earth.
 
I wish I was smart enough (or patient enough) to really understand that paper you linked to. Do you know of a more layman friendly version? I think they are discussing harnessing and directing the energy from movement of particles, and how the application could be used for travel in space, but certainly not for overcoming earth's gravity. I don't think they are suggesting they could create the massive amounts of power necessary for that. Regardless, it's yet another of the many fascinating breakthroughs that we continue to see.

And the rest of your post is also filled with wow moments. My brother-in-law is in the same business as you, and I have toured the Micron plant with him a couple of times. It's fascinating. In some ways I think going through the Lehi fab is a more exotic adventure than taking a trip to the moon would be. I highly recommend it to anyone who can get the opportunity.

Sure thing. Here is a Wired.com link:

https://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2014-07/31/nasa-validates-impossible-space-drive

It was all over science and technology news websites, so you can easily find as much information as you want. Keep in mind that there is a LOT of skepticism about the experiment in the scientific community, since the results are a probable violation of the conservation of energy (I say probably because NASA suspects if the results hold, then it is a product of not-yet-well-understood physics, like zero-point energy).

But if true, they think that thrust can be produced through spontaneous production of particles from the vacuum (particles fluctuate in and out of existence in a vacuum). That means a rocket will only need to carry a power supply, without any reaction fuel. The implications are... well, inconceivable. I don't want to get too excited in case it turns out to be a mistake, but I sure hope it's confirmed in the near future.
 
Do you ever eat meat? If so, what you must have really meant to say is that you pay people to murder animals for you.

...got to agree with the bagofdonuts guy, here, Dutch! First of all, killing an animal is not "murder"....since our Creator gave the ok on that some 4,000 years ago when Noah came out of the Ark! If your going to eat them, use them for clothing or to protect yourself from harm, your in the clear! Shooting them for "sport" or just for "trophy's" would not be proper, as did the mighty hunter "Nimrod" mentioned also in the Genesis account. So, it is proper for man to "kill" animals......but he was not authorized to indulge in needless slaughter for the sheer thrill of the hunt or to display personal prowess!
 
Pretty sure a killer whale would eat a Nile crocodile and still be hungry. Apex predator depends on the environment. However man+technology=overall top Apex predator on earth.

.....yeah, but the croc can do there hunting both on land and in the water! Killer whales, although actually mammals, can't survive or prey on anything on land! True or false?
 
I sincerely hope people don't engage with CJ as that would drag the quality of the discussion into the gutter.
 
I sincerely hope people don't engage with CJ as that would drag the quality of the discussion into the gutter.

....what I bring to this discussion is nothing less than primo-excellent facts that are indisputable....and viewpoints and observations that are both reasonable and informative!
 
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