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Bundys Go Free

I don't think race comes into the conversation here, based on this reasoning.

These ranchers were heroes of the decades long Sagebrush Rebellion, as were the Bundy's, and the occupiers of the wildlife refuge.

Trump has shown obvious affinity for the philosophy at the heart of this movement. It's proponents are a part of his base. His Secretary of the Interior, Ryan Zinke, shows obvious affinity toward that movement as well. We only have to look at the removal of National Monument status for large portions of two huge tracts of land in southern Utah. For Trump, I'm sure shrinking the size of those monuments was also part of his effort to reduce or eliminate Obama's legacy, but these ranchers, the events involving the Bundy's, the occupation of the refuge, and now this pardon, are chapters of that land control movement, and the pardon is a nod by Trump to that element in his base.

So, I think it's not a question of whether a black, Latino, or Muslim would be treated differently if they had done the same thing, but rather how many blacks, Latinos, or Muslims are ranchers in eastern Oregon, and how many would be members of the decades long Sagebrush Rebellion? I don't know the demographics here, but I am guessing the answer is none. So I don't think race enters the equation in this situation, because it would not likely ever occur in this particular context. Except to acknowledge the Sagebrush Rebellion is likely dominated by white people where it is centered.

Video:

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/religionandethics/2016/05/13/sagebrush-rebellion/30487/

Given your basic point of view, this is about as reasonable as you could be. I still dispute the whole analytical hypothesis. The only reason there are not more blacks involved in the "Sagebrush Rebellion" is because of institutional racism created by, imo, socialists of the late nineteenth century.
Mormons, as well as blacks and American natiives, were deliberately excluded, bureaucratically, from homestead opportunities.

We we still have institutional racism, and I look at it as the social construct of socialists trying to manage society to their advantage, essentially balkanizing people into "special" groups based on oh, national origin or physical appearance or anything else that can serve the weak-minded and impressionable boobtubers and 'net cruisers as the intellectual drive-by fast food du jour.

If you have to use the word "race" to describe a common human problem in dealing with unfamiliar folks.... let's call them "strangers".....you're really bastardizing the discussion. Sure we have all kinds of differences. Sure we don't just warm up right away at a lot of unfamiliar ideas, behaviors, cultures, or beliefs.

We can write all the laws we need to eliminate inequities in the government's application of the law without referring to any subgroups except "citizen" or "non-citizen". Sure Hillary, Obama and the revolutionary pseudo-Marxists among us might dream of open borders, but that amounts practically to anarchy, complete lawlessness. People are starving in Brazil, and Venezuelans are dying hiking through the jungles to get there.... We have a whole lot of failied "socialist" countries.

Socialism of every variety fails because it is pure fantasy, wood liquor sold to the masses by the few who hope to be the big weanies of the world. Hillary and Obama and a lot of elected guvmint officials who've been down for the ride with "progress" have made themselves filthy rich doing the business of guvmint. Look at McConnel and Pelosi. Look at Harry Reid and his son Cory in Nevada.

The Bundys were making claims a lot of people are not familiar with, dating their grazing rights clear back to before we had any federal claims on the land. Clark County, NV was part of Arizona territory before 1890, part of California before the Mexican war, and there was a cattle grazing grant from the Spanish. The Bundys argued that it was not the Fed's business to regulate what was never theirs. Clark County was the proper place where the grazing rights were recorded, and that is where the Bundy's wanted to pay whatever grazing assessment.

Harry Reid and son Cory were trying to make a lucrative deal, cutting themselves in on the largess, by running the Bundys off their land and clearing the place for miles and miles of solar panels.

BLM is violating every professed claim to managing the land and resources to conserve natural values like scenery and wildlife to be signing of on that kind of deal. It is corrupt politics because Harry Reid leaned on his buddys in the BLM office to get them to take action against the Bundys rather than resolve the dispute in the courts.

The Bend, Ore. ranchers were similarly targeted by an influential politician who pointed to the area and more or less said... "Clear'em Out. Me and my Chinese business partners have a great deal"

Anyways, Red, I think if you want the archaeological sites preserved and studied, you should take a good hard look at these politicians. All of 'em.
 
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The essence of babe.

A few years ago, the interagency group of big idea folks from the Forest Service, BLM and what=have=you decided to do a controlled burn near me. It got outta hand and did about $200,000 damage to me. No, the bastards didn't apologize or offer to pay anything.

Yes, you are partisan to this issue, but you should put me on ignore because I will make you run the gauntlet until you concede the BLM is a rogue outfit of lawless arrogant losers who ruin everything they touch. You got no ground to stand on, bud.

Damn right, the fire started at the Bend, Ore. ranch was a prudent fire to start. Maybe if they could have gotten some cooperation it would have been controlled better, but I bet with the meddling BLM or wildlife refuge "help" it woulda burned more of that grass. A totally natural thing, wildfires. If we don't do "controlled burns", the stuff will likely burn before it turns to peat. And even if it does turn to peat, it will still likely burn one day. A grass fire in a marsh is nothing to get your panties in a bunch about. If it makes you heartsick to see grass burn, you should call for more grazing.

As I understand it, the "refuge" is largely for migratory birds. There might be some nesting issues and maybe a wiser choice of when to try the controlled burn, but fires happen in nature, always have, whenever there is dry enough fuel, and the birds have learned to fly.......pretty surely by the time the grass gets that dry, the nestlings are on their way....north for the summer.
 
You limited interpretation does not account for the cultural influences and cultural inertia. We need to change our culture.

I think you've sipped too long on the college or political propaganda rhetoric. Who the hell would ever think we don't have "cultural inertia", and who the hell are you to fix it???? Sonnie Johnson might think I need educatin' in hip hop and the way things are for the blacks, and she is nobody's patsy for sure. She doesn't like socialism because she believes we should be a society of opportunity, not welfare. We did a lot of crap on the native Americans with all the reservation socialism they've been subjected to, too. Why isn't it good enough for you to let people be free enough to do their own thinking?



History says otherwise. In terms of day-to-day living, in the Jim Crow South people interacted with other races much more frequently than they do today in most northern cities.

I don't know anything about the South, either from family history or my own experience. I woulda thought separate restrooms was just nuts.



Well, if a white person is saying racism is not a problem, how could anyone think otherwise?

If you think the color of the person saying anything is relevant to the discussion, perhaps you're thinking in overly "racist" terms.



What does poop have to do with being a sanctuary city?

San Francisco is the filthiest stinkin' place for poop precisely because it is a sanctuary city. Druggies, homeless.... but tons of "illegals" of every kind. The Mayor is a bleeding heart open borders loon who doesn't think twice about all the crap piles because, of course, she actually lives in Napa county.



Let me know when you find some liberals like that.

I think you misunderstood me. Let me restate the case.....

I'm the one sayin that guvmint and propaganda.... state-run "education" and socialization.... is the problem.

Of course, the very definition of a "liberal".... has been hijacked and turned into something that reeks of coercion and oppression.... by the new "fascists" who believe they should lay down the law, the rules, the norms, and every nuance of politically-acceptable opinion because it is just insufferable to let ordinary folks just be what they are.

I'm sure there is a helluva lot of cultural inertia in our society that conditions us peons to say "yes sir" and do what our managers direct. Liberals today are the "plantation owners" who sincerely believe they are so damn right we could never make it on our own.
 
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I'm the one sayin that guvmint and propaganda.... state-run "education" and socialization.... is the problem.

Of course, the very definition of a "liberal".... has been hijacked and turned into something that reeks of coercion and oppression.... by the new "fascists" who believe they should lay down the law, the rules, the norms, and every nuance of politically-acceptable opinion because it is just insufferable to let ordinary folks just be what they are.

I'm sure there is a helluva lot of cultural inertia in our society that conditions us peons to say "yes sir" and do what our managers direct. Liberals today are the "plantation owners" who sincerely believe they are so damn right we could never make it on our own.

I agree government and propaganda are parts of the problem. However, there are other parts of the problem.

Culture propagates itself, passed on from one generation to the next. I don't think conservatives disagree on that, except when it comes to the negative aspects of culture.
 
Given your basic point of view, this is about as reasonable as you could be. I still dispute the whole analytical hypothesis. The only reason there are not more blacks involved in the "Sagebrush Rebellion" is because of institutional racism created by, imo, socialists of the late nineteenth century.
Mormons, as well as blacks and American natiives, were deliberately excluded, bureaucratically, from homestead opportunities.

We we still have institutional racism, and I look at it as the social construct of socialists trying to manage society to their advantage, essentially balkanizing people into "special" groups based on oh, national origin or physical appearance or anything else that can serve the weak-minded and impressionable boobtubers and 'net cruisers as the intellectual drive-by fast food du jour.

If you have to use the word "race" to describe a common human problem in dealing with unfamiliar folks.... let's call them "strangers".....you're really bastardizing the discussion. Sure we have all kinds of differences. Sure we don't just warm up right away at a lot of unfamiliar ideas, behaviors, cultures, or beliefs.

We can write all the laws we need to eliminate inequities in the government's application of the law without referring to any subgroups except "citizen" or "non-citizen". Sure Hillary, Obama and the revolutionary pseudo-Marxists among us might dream of open borders, but that amounts practically to anarchy, complete lawlessness. People are starving in Brazil, and Venezuelans are dying hiking through the jungles to get there.... We have a whole lot of failied "socialist" countries.

Socialism of every variety fails because it is pure fantasy, wood liquor sold to the masses by the few who hope to be the big weanies of the world. Hillary and Obama and a lot of elected guvmint officials who've been down for the ride with "progress" have made themselves filthy rich doing the business of guvmint. Look at McConnel and Pelosi. Look at Harry Reid and his son Cory in Nevada.

The Bundys were making claims a lot of people are not familiar with, dating their grazing rights clear back to before we had any federal claims on the land. Clark County, NV was part of Arizona territory before 1890, part of California before the Mexican war, and there was a cattle grazing grant from the Spanish. The Bundys argued that it was not the Fed's business to regulate what was never theirs. Clark County was the proper place where the grazing rights were recorded, and that is where the Bundy's wanted to pay whatever grazing assessment.

Harry Reid and son Cory were trying to make a lucrative deal, cutting themselves in on the largess, by running the Bundys off their land and clearing the place for miles and miles of solar panels.

BLM is violating every professed claim to managing the land and resources to conserve natural values like scenery and wildlife to be signing of on that kind of deal. It is corrupt politics because Harry Reid leaned on his buddys in the BLM office to get them to take action against the Bundys rather than resolve the dispute in the courts.

The Bend, Ore. ranchers were similarly targeted by an influential politician who pointed to the area and more or less said... "Clear'em Out. Me and my Chinese business partners have a great deal"

Anyways, Red, I think if you want the archaeological sites preserved and studied, you should take a good hard look at these politicians. All of 'em.

Well, I was not addressing the decision to shrink Bears Ears National Monument. Yes, it does contain, especially in the Cedar Mesa region, which was cut from the monument, the largest collection of Ancestral Puebloan sites in the Southwest.

Since you brought up my interest in protecting those sites in your last sentence, here is some reading that points to the more specific reasons for shrinking that particular monument. I don't believe you touched on these reasons:

https://inhabitat.com/new-evidence-...central-in-the-decision-to-reduce-bears-ears/

And clues that those desires to extract minerals and oil from public lands is now a central focus of the BLM:

https://www.outsideonline.com/2290386/new-vision-blm-oil

Finally, nobody has done a better job of video documenting Ancestral Puebloan sites on Cedar Mesa then Dana Hollister. These videos average 5 minutes or less, include nice music, and I can't recommend them enough. 62 videos in total documenting Cedar Mesa.

https://m.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL3pynWoHELGe5Z0_kQjrUmITvCfwV8zF_

Well, here's the longest of his videos, only 10 minutes. But it says a lot about what's important about preserving those pieces of our national cultural heritage. You might enjoy this, and, at any rate, you're in a much better position to visit the area. Dana Hollister is the kind of guy it would be very easy for me to call a friend.

 
My neighbor for many years.... owned an energy development company often hired by the likes of Exxon or Standard Oil to do the grunt work at the BLM offices getting the leases for new exploration on these very lands. One day he invited me up to his office, which was pretty huge.... and it had a wall maps of the area with accurate locations pinned for every claim for oil and mineral rights in the area. That was in the 1990s. About 1996. He had some oil wells of his own. He was being extremely nice to me and educating me, since I had bought property with oil rights, and he was explaining to me how to do business with the oil companies.

Clinton had just announced the vast monument of the Grand Staircase. He was all for it. There had been a developer working for years on a multi-billion dollar coal development, a Dutch outfit with American coal resources known to be the largest and cleanest coal deposit on Planet Earth. If allowed to go forward, the reserves are sufficient to meet all our energy needs for hundreds of years.

He matter of factly told me we have more oil and coal than anybody could dream of, showed me how the exploration is moving inexorably towards my place. All the majors have done exploratory wells. They drill the holes and cap 'em....because.... well, we're using politically unstable oil first.

When I directly asked him about Grand Staircase he was even more direct: "We can't let them have that coal".

In short, our guvmint is owned by proprietors of our cartel interests who are determined to use the guvmint to enforce their priorities and edge out or run off "the wrong people" getting the resources.

I had another contact.... I kept books for a business here in SLC for over twenty years where "all the right people" did business. The bluebloods of Utah, the owners of the Salt Lake Tribune back then... all the folks who went to the Thursday afternoon (monthly) meeting of the SLCFR. The nice lady had the same view about Grand Staircase. When I asserted that it wouldn't stop development, that when we needed the resource and the "right people" were in the queue to develop it, the restrictions would magically be lifted and development would go forward..... she said "I don't care, its our coal". She retired and lives in Moab. It is indeed a wondrous place. I have been camping there myself. It's my wife's favorite place on Earth.

I believe the Sierra Club and a lot of other "conservation" groups are paid shills for the interests, who fund them and let them run with their little dreamy loves for the land.... for a while....on purpose to keep control of everything in the "right hands".

Folks like your friend Tommy might be the salt of the Earth. In my dreams, I prospect for oil, coal and Uranium too. As a chemist, I can tell you that operations like Kennecott near Salt Lake City have developed the capacity and the philosophy of cleaner operations that recover more of the resources at lower grades than we ever could before, and that trend will continue. The future of mining is clean.

And I think it's the same for Oil and nuclear and coal power plants.....I can drive for hours all over Texas and the place is not stinkin' with tar exactly. Ranchers run their cows and farmers plow around the little tanks, the pipes, the wells, and it really is not an eyesore. We probably owe a lot of thanks to all the regulators though.... at some valid and reasonable level of understanding.

Near Green River, there is a huge nuclear plant being planned, and it will go forward. I'm all for it.... if we get the place properly engineered for the long term safe and clean operation I know it can be.

The public mind will probably always be decades behind the industries' experts or the environmental regulators, but the need is the same. Without an informed public it will all go to hell pretty damn quick. Interests.... exploiters of guvmint power...... players like Hillary, Obama, and maybe Trump too for all I know....run circles around us. Lie to us, and give us the mushroom treatment. Having a compliant Press is part of the problem for us, part of "the way things are done" for them. It's pretty hard for people to keep up and get it right.

But there is no need to trash the archaeology sites either. We need people to be interested, to understand, and to be free to enjoy, without destroying, these things. We do not need to be filthy stinkin' irresponsible pigs about anything. We do need to have local control over development as the best protection against corruption. Well, we need any kind of control we can possibly hold on to. Honestly.

I don't think you will ever have a better clear shot at conservation without educated landowners like me who will do the front-line work on the ground, discouraging irresponsible trashers. Near my place, there have been three published archaeological projects that I've known of. I visited the archaeologist's camps while they did their work.

I don't pry stuff outta the dirt to be a looky-loo, but I don't tell anyone either. I am glad when scientists come to do it, given their methodology of leaving parts systematically untouched in hopes of better analytical tools in the future. They do not completely destroy their sites.
 
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Don’t respond until you’ve thought this issue through. Honestly, don’t respond if you don’t care about having informed discussion about social justice with me.

And we all thought OB’s stalker was a narcissistic, sociopathic, tool belt...
 
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