College Debt Forgiveness

[Zombie]

That's the misconception that is a major part of the problem. A degree is necessary in a variety of fields. However, there are countless people that are middle-class and never went to college (and thus never incurred the associated debt). We need more people focusing on trade schools or starting businesses.



That's only going to provide incentive for more people to try out college, which I'm not sure is what our economy needs. We do need more people studying STEM fields, but so many people go to college and study fields that we don't need people working in. If an overhaul does happen, I would hope that it steers away from the "Associates - Bachelors - Masters" system. Many degrees don't need the level of general education classes that are required to take to graduate ($$$).

I don't disagree in theory, but in practice even entry level positions require a degree of some kind, and any applicant without one is going to be pushed to the bottom of the pile in favor of applicants with one. I agree that shouldn't be the case, but it is the world we're living in, and I'm not seeing a clear way out of it. I'm lucky (for now) with a decent job and a home I own, but I live in a smallish Wyoming town and I know I'm the exception not the rule.

 

[Zombie]

It's only a progress idea in that it is supported by young people, a demographic that the DNC has to entice to vote in order to have a shot at winning in 2020. It's certainly not a liberal idea in the classic sense, in that a lot of poor to middle class people (in part) will be paying off the debt of those that graduated college and earn more than them (through taxes). I'm pretty sure most liberals want the close the wealth gap, not increase it.

Again, it depends on the proposal, Warren's plan for example calls for it to be paid via a tax on those with a personal wealth in excess of 50 million dollars.

 

[RandyForRubio]

This is a good point, kids today are entering into these agreements with little understanding and the institutions making these predatory loans know it.

Since when is ignorance a good excuse?

If we look at it from a purely utilitarian point of view I understand it. We've set up a system where a college degree is more or less a necessity to join the middle class, and yet because of the soaring costs of getting that education people aren't able to afford what was once common even without a degree, things like home ownership, personal savings etc. I view student debt forgiveness as a very effective way to inject a boost into our economy, which will benefit all of us, saying this as someone without any student debt myself. I do think this initiative is best paired with an overhaul of the public university system in general, whether that means "debt free" college or free tuition at public universities.

I understand why it doesn't please people to "bail out" people who entered into these agreements of their own free will, but I think it's in everyone's best interest to do so.

A degree is not a necessity to be middle class. Far from it. I think that's an incredibly ignorant and damaging statement.

Become an electrician, a welder, a mechanic, etc etc. There are plenty of good avenues to making a living and not spending a fortune on tuition.

For me, I have a hard time feeling sorry for other people making their own poor choices. I especially have a hard time when it's primarily a government problem. State run institutions raise tuition because the federal government increases the amount that the federal loan institutions can loan. Maybe the solution isn't more government intervention, but less? This reminds me. I'm on a board that deals with agricultural research at the local University. When going through the budget we ask why they buy things that aren't really necessary. The answer? "If we don't spend the money we're given, we won't get as much the next year, let alone more." The sad fact is that it's true. So much waste.

So yeah, I'm a jerk, but I don't feel sorry for Freddy who spent $120k on a 4 year degree where you have to get a master's degree to have a chance at a mediocre paying job that's already oversupplied. And of course they had to go out of state so they could experience life. Go to the damn public library, spend an afternoon researching job markets, trends, and tuition costs. This stuff isn't hard. Ignorance is no excuse.

 

[Zombie]

Since when is ignorance a good excuse?


A degree is not a necessity to be middle class. Far from it. I think that's an incredibly ignorant and damaging statement.

Become an electrician, a welder, a mechanic, etc etc. There are plenty of good avenues to making a living and not spending a fortune on tuition.

For me, I have a hard time feeling sorry for other people making their own poor choices. I especially have a hard time when it's primarily a government problem. State run institutions raise tuition because the federal government increases the amount that the federal loan institutions can loan. Maybe the solution isn't more government intervention, but less?

So yeah, I'm a jerk, but I don't feel sorry for Freddy who spent $120k on a 4 year degree where you have to get a master's degree to have a chance at a mediocre paying job that's already oversupplied. And of course they had to go out of state so they could experience life. Go to the damn public library, spend an afternoon researching job markets, trends, and tuition costs. This stuff isn't hard. Ignorance is no excuse.

Who said it was an excuse? I'm not trying to make a moral argument but when the level of student debt is larger than credit card debt and auto loans it's obvious it's not simply due to foolhardiness of the debtors, this is a systemic problem. Whether you personally think it's "fair" or not doesn't really matter

 

[Zombie]

A degree is not a necessity to be middle class. Far from it. I think that's an incredibly ignorant and damaging statement.

It's a damaging statement? Come on man. and as I pointed out, there are paths into the middle class for some without degrees (myself for example), but it's the exception, not the rule.

 

[RandyForRubio]

Who said it was an excuse? I'm not trying to make a moral argument but when the level of student debt is larger than credit card debt and auto loans it's obvious it's not simply due to foolhardiness of the debtors, this is a systemic problem. Whether you personally think it's "fair" or not doesn't really matter

I kinda detailed the problem. Simplistic version of it, but true.

 

[Zombie]

I kinda detailed the problem. Simplistic version of it, but true.

A little too simplistic. Problems this widespread can't simply by chalked up to people not pulling themselves up by their bootstraps, which it seems like you are suggesting.

Working full time and going to college is still not enough to cover instate tuition at most public schools without incurring some debt.

This used to be the case, but it really isn't anymore for too many people. You are using the most extreme examples to support your point, it's not like every student with debt is going out of state and not working.

 

[AlaskanAssassin]

I don't disagree in theory, but in practice even entry level positions require a degree of some kind, and any applicant without one is going to be pushed to the bottom of the pile in favor of applicants with one. I agree that shouldn't be the case, but it is the world we're living in, and I'm not seeing a clear way out of it.

I feel terrible for people that spent four years and thousands of dollars on a degree........only to be working as a receptionist, bartender, driving Uber, or some other job that doesn't allow them to use their education. At the end of the day, they chose that degree to pursue, and it didn't land them the career they were hoping for. However, making college free or setting the precedent that the government will erase your school debt is only going to exacerbate the problem.

I'm all for some government programs that steer students towards rewarding and good paying career fields. However, only a small portion of those efforts should be towards pushing students into a 4-year university.

 

[RandyForRubio]

A little too simplistic. Problems this widespread can't simply by chalked up to people not pulling themselves up by their bootstraps, which it seems like you are suggesting.

Working full time and going to college is still not enough to cover instate tuition at most public schools without incurring some debt.

This used to be the case, but it really isn't anymore for too many people. You are using the most extreme examples to support your point, it's not like every student with debt is going out of state and not working.

That's not what I said, or what I was referring to.

I'll help you out.

"I especially have a hard time when it's primarily a government problem. State run institutions raise tuition because the federal government increases the amount that the federal loan institutions can loan."

 

[Zombie]

That's not what I said, or what I was referring to.

I'll help you out.

"I especially have a hard time when it's primarily a government problem. State run institutions raise tuition because the federal government increases the amount that the federal loan institutions can loan."

Oh gotcha. Part of my post was replying to earlier posts of yours so I wasn't very clear. I agree that's a problem which is why I support tuition free public school or debt free school initiatives.

 

[Ron Mexico]

Part of the problem is people choosing degrees that dont have good job paths. People need to do an ounce of research and figure that out.

Also many people think they can just get a degree then they deserve a job in their career. You still need to be responsible, show you can work hard, be respectful of employers, dress up, and act like an adult at an interview. A bunch of people I have personally seen complaining about not getting jobs in their field after college have never really worked, arent reliable, dont dress up for interviews properly, and generally expect to get hired no matter how they act or looks. Then they complain about it.

If you get a college degree in a field that doesnt have a high paying path, isnt really hiring, or other issues then thats on you a bit. Also why would you choose to go to a college out of state or really expensive to get a degree in something like that. I went into debt for my first semester of college then I worked hard and paid semester by semester and found schools that were affordable to me.

 

[RandyForRubio]

Part of the problem is people choosing degrees that dont have good job paths. People need to do an ounce of research and figure that out.

Also many people think they can just get a degree then they deserve a job in their career. You still need to be responsible, show you can work hard, be respectful of employers, dress up, and act like an adult at an interview. A bunch of people I have personally seen complaining about not getting jobs in their field after college have never really worked, arent reliable, dont dress up for interviews properly, and generally expect to get hired no matter how they act or looks. Then they complain about it.

If you get a college degree in a field that doesnt have a high paying path, isnt really hiring, or other issues then thats on you a bit. Also why would you choose to go to a college out of state or really expensive to get a degree in something like that. I went into debt for my first semester of college then I worked hard and paid semester by semester and found schools that were affordable to me.

Apparently if you say this, you're promoting that people should pull themselves up by their bootstraps. No accountability allowed.

 

[Eminence]

In-state/out-of-state tuition has always seemed a bit ridiculous to me.

 

[Ron Mexico]

Apparently if you say this, you're promoting that people should pull themselves up by their bootstraps. No accountability allowed.

I think people need help. Its hard to go to college when you are poor and have no help. But we have programs in place for minorities, poor, and people with disabilities to go to college. We just need to help people take advantage of these. We dont need to just make it free for everyone or forgive past debts for everyone. There are things harder to overcome and I am happy to give some help to those people. All college is free for the first 2 years already up to a certain amount. Everyone should take advantage of this.

People just need to be better educated on their options and what is available to help them out. Personally I think that is a failure of high schools and colleges. They both need to do more to help kids out and help them succeed. Most school counselors would probably just tell kids to go to the best school they get approved for and go into whatever degree they think is the most fun or interesting.

 

[RandyForRubio]

Oh gotcha. Part of my post was replying to earlier posts of yours so I wasn't very clear. I agree that's a problem which is why I support tuition free public school or debt free school initiatives.

Ok. Where's the money for paying professors/aides coming from? Money for dorms? Building improvements? Is everything coming off of the governments teat?

These kids need responsibility and accountability. They need to learn how to process information with future thinking. Anyone should be able to take a pencil and paper and figure out what their degrees median salary is, School tuition is, and loan interest. This is very basic ****.

Don't give them free things. Buy them a Dave Ramsey book instead.

 

[RandyForRubio]

I think people need help. Its hard to go to college when you are poor and have no help. But we have programs in place for minorities, poor, and people with disabilities to go to college. We just need to help people take advantage of these. We dont need to just make it free for everyone or forgive past debts for everyone. There are things harder to overcome and I am happy to give some help to those people. All college is free for the first 2 years already up to a certain amount. Everyone should take advantage of this.

People just need to be better educated on their options and what is available to help them out. Personally I think that is a failure of high schools and colleges. They both need to do more to help kids out and help them succeed. Most school counselors would probably just tell kids to go to the best school they get approved for and go into whatever degree they think is the most fun or interesting.

Colleges have awful advisors bc they just want more money. HS counselors just seem to be awful.

I'm telling you, pencil, paper, day or two at a public library, and a little bit of common sense. Parents that give a damn would be a big help too.

 

[Ron Mexico]

Colleges have awful advisors bc they just want more money. HS counselors just seem to be awful.

I'm telling you, pencil, paper, day or two at a public library, and a little bit of common sense. Parents that give a damn would be a big help too.

I agree, kids and parents need to do better and do more work.

 

[AlaskanAssassin]

Most school counselors would probably just tell kids to go to the best school they get approved for and go into whatever degree they think is the most fun or interesting.

Totally agree that counselors make this suggestion all the time. I've seen it first hand. Parents need better involvement too.

The emphasis can never be to just go into the degree that you find most fun or interesting. Students should be looking for where the best opportunity is.

I'm sure a lot of people hate PragerU on here, but I found this video worthwhile:

 

[Zombie]

Ok. Where's the money for paying professors/aides coming from? Money for dorms? Building improvements? Is everything coming off of the governments teat?

These kids need responsibility and accountability. They need to learn how to process information with future thinking. Anyone should be able to take a pencil and paper and figure out what their degrees median salary is, School tuition is, and loan interest. This is very basic ****.

Don't give them free things. Buy them a Dave Ramsey book instead.

Yeah a self help book will for sure solve this problem

Again, all you are proposing are individual solutions (which aren't bad per se) for a systemic problem. As for how to pay for free public college, rolling back the Trump tax cuts would surely be a good place to start. Secondary education is in the public's interest, plenty of developed countries have figured out a way to educate their population without crippling them with debt.

 

[RandyForRubio]

Yeah a self help book will for sure solve this problem

Again, all you are proposing are individual solutions (which aren't bad per se) for a systemic problem. As for how to pay for free public college, rolling back the Trump tax cuts would surely be a good place to start. Secondary education is in the public's interest, plenty of developed countries have figured out a way to educate their population without crippling them with debt.

The Ramsey bit was an attempt at being slightly humorous. In all seriousness though, if more people followed it, we'd we in a better place fiscally. It's probably helped more people become debt free than anything else.

Anyways, somebody's debt is an individual problem. Even with the majority of the country having debt, it's still a large amount of individual problems. If it was systemic, everybody that went to college would have the same problem. Clearly, that isn't true.

We have several problems.

1: Too many people attending college that don't have to.

2: Lack of knowledge of what your degree will pay you vs what your tuition plus interest will cost you.

3: Tuition artificially increasing because of guaranteed federal student loans.

Debt forgiveness/free tuition is a bandaid that doesn't come close to solving the real issues here.

And no, the tax cuts (WHICH HELP THE PEOPLE THAT HAVE STUDENT LOANS) aren't much of a start. If you cut tuition costs, you have to pay the tuition AND what that tuition money went to pay. The costs don't miraculously disappear, they just become someone else's responsibility.

And yeah, education helps a lot. We have a ton of affordable options. A new house for me would help a lot too. So would a new business, or nicer things for my business. I still have to pay for those. The idea of "it benefits the collective so it must be free" is incredibly faulty.