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dantheman

dantheman

Member
(Forgive me, this post got long by the end. I wrote a lot because I know there are a few attorneys on the board and I want to give an accurate picture of where I am, so I can get good feedback.)

Here is the deal; I just graduated from Utah Valley University with a B.S. in Business Management. I was an idiot my first two years of school and my grades were pretty bad. My last two years were much better, I averaged about a 3.5. My cumulative is right around 3.0. (Sucks, I know)

For the past few years I've been thinking more and more about grad school, but haven't known exactly what I wanted to do. An MBA would be cool, but my undergrad is already in business and I want to diversify, I would also like to stay in Utah and it seems like the market is saturated with MBAs. My mom is a CPA and really pushed for me to try that, but I don't love accounting, I just don't have the passion for it. I've thought about doing a second B.S. in Information Systems, I like computers and software development, but I don't love it.

All of my professional experience is in the software industry, specifically dental and medical software. I've been doing Quality Assurance and Product\Business Analysis for the past four years and have made a pretty decent career with it already. I think I have a pretty good shot at becoming a Product Manager for my current employer and getting into the 80-100k a year range. I just don't want to get down the road 5 years and realize I can't move up any further without more education and I no longer enjoy my job. I'm 26 years old and already feel behind on the law school idea, that the window is still open, but quickly closing.

From what I know, IP law would be the best fit for me and where I would aim to specialize. I’ve heard there is some demand for attorneys who understand software development. I plan on getting in an LSAT prep course and then going from there. I think if I can get in the mid to high 160's on the LSAT then I have an outside chance of getting into a school that’s worthwhile.

I understand the salary for graduates right after law school is bi-modal. Obviously, if I end up with 60 to 100k in student loan debt, I need to be on the right side of the salary distribution to justify the expensive education. I also own a home and I’m underwater on it about 10k, but I have no other debt and about 15k in savings. I’ve been married 6 years but don’t have any kids. I have a lot of family close, who are financially well-off and would be willing to help me a reasonable amount. My mom is single and has a nice\big place, I could potentially rent or sell my home and live with her if needed and if I was accepted to BYU or the U. (I just give this information to give an accurate picture of my position).

I want to do law school because I think I’d be good at it, and passionate enough to enjoy school and a career as an attorney. I am competitive and think I wouldn't hate myself\my career in 5, 10, 20 years if I went for it. Also the potential to make considerably more money over my entire career is an obvious plus.

Anyway, I just wanted to get some feedback from anyone with experience with law school\practicing law. I know I’m not the ideal candidate, but I’m thinking about giving it a shot and want to get some feedback first.

Thanks dudes.
 
YB85 said:
Have you seen the bimodal salary distribution curve for new lawyers?
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Yes.

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You may have thought this through already, but the equation is much more complex. Lost wages lost over 4 years + equity lost (or gained these days) + student debt + school costs + extra years in retirement + opportunity costs, just to include a few more. I would have never made my investment in pharmacy school back.

Since you're in a position to start over reasonably enough (meaning no kids), I'd focus more on what you'll enjoy more. Also, if you want to be a lawyer of any merit then hard work isn't going to be enough. You've got to be smarter than a blowhard like me.
 
Go talk to the pre-law advisor at UVU. She will paint a very bleak picture, especially here in Utah. Lots of attorneys are dying right now. I believe in Utah new attorneys only make 25 an hour. I also know lots of unemployed lawyers.

I would do an MBA, they only look at your last 60 credits and it's a year less in school. Plus your summers usually entail a paid internship.
 
franklin said:
You may have thought this through already, but the equation is much more complex. Lost wages lost over 4 years + equity lost (or gained these days) + student debt + school costs + extra years in retirement + opportunity costs, just to include a few more. I would have never made my investment in pharmacy school back.

Since you're in a position to start over reasonably enough (meaning no kids), I'd focus more on what you'll enjoy more. Also, if you want to be a lawyer of any merit then hard work isn't going to be enough. You've got to be smarter than a blowhard like me.
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Thanks for your post, Franklin. I have considered many of those things, except I hadn't thought much about the opportunity or equity cost. Good point.

So you're glad you did pharmacy school, or no?
 
Beantown said:
Go talk to the pre-law advisor at UVU. She will paint a very bleak picture, especially here in Utah. Lots of attorneys are dying right now. I believe in Utah new attorneys only make 25 an hour. I also know lots of unemployed lawyers.

I would do an MBA, they only look at your last 60 credits and it's a year less in school. Plus your summers usually entail a paid internship.
Click to expand...

Thanks, Beantown. I will go meet with the Pre-Law advisor at UVU. Can I ask, did you do an MBA or JD? What do you do for work?
 
dantheman said:
Thanks, Beantown. I will go meet with the Pre-Law advisor at UVU. Can I ask, did you do an MBA or JD? What do you do for work?
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I have a bachelors in environmental science and finishing another in Health administration. I took the LSAT but never applied because I just thought it was too risky and too much debt. I wanted to do either environmental law or health law, which maybe down the road I will. But now I'm thinking of an MBA or MHA. The other issue with law is it really constricts you because you have to pass the bar for each state you want to work in or apply for. So it makes job hunting hard.
 
Beantown said:
The other issue with law is it really constricts you because you have to pass the bar for each state you want to work in or apply for. So it makes job hunting hard.
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This is half true. And the reasons it's half true are related to the reasons the salary curve is bimodal.

If you're going to get a large firm job straight out of law school you usually already know which firm and what location by the time you're halfway done because you do most of your job interviews at the beginning of your second year of law school. Those are the jobs that tend to be on the far right side of the curve and particularly the big spike on exactly $160k/yr. It's a totally screwed up situation but it's important to know that the job track isn't traditional in the sense that you start applying after graduation.

If you're planning on striking out on your own every state holds their bar exam at the same time following graduation because they all use the same multi-state bar administration for the core subject areas. If you're going to strike out on your own or work in a government position you can basically pick your state in advance and say that's where you're going to go for it. Of course these "hang out a shingle" options is how you end up on the left side of the curve.

FWIW the vast majority of those $160k/yr jobs are in just a handful of markets and none of them are Utah.
 
Kicky, in your opinion has the economy hurt attorneys severely or only in a few fields? Also would you do you choose law again if you had the choice?
 
Beantown said:
Go talk to the pre-law advisor at UVU. She will paint a very bleak picture, especially here in Utah. Lots of attorneys are dying right now. I believe in Utah new attorneys only make 25 an hour. I also know lots of unemployed lawyers.

I would do an MBA, they only look at your last 60 credits and it's a year less in school. Plus your summers usually entail a paid internship.
Click to expand...

Do you know any attorneys that our looking to be in the collection field? My office is looking for a full in house attorney to file suits. Pay would be like 3500-40000 base plus unlimited commissons on what they bring in off tax farms judgements
 
dantheman said:
Thanks for your post, Franklin. I have considered many of those things, except I hadn't thought much about the opportunity or equity cost. Good point.

So you're glad you did pharmacy school, or no?
Click to expand...

I meant that I would have never recouped the costs had I gone. The deciding factor for me was I didn't really care for that work, although it would have been less boring than what I am currently doing.

On the flip side, one intangible you can't really calculate is the flexibility and freedom higher earning power will bring you. $ made in excess of the cost of living becomes more enjoyable with each increment, to an extent anyway. People [who can manage not to spend more than they make no matter how much they pull in ]feel more secure and that's not something you can put into a basic equation.

Another thing I would consider is work availability and location. Pharmacists have a job from sea to shining sea, and can pretty much work as much overtime as they can stand. I work 50 hours per week but only get paid 40 because of the long commute. A pharmacist can pick where she lives and works, and could work the same 50 hour week but get paid the extra ten at a higher wage. That's worth over $20,000/year for the rest of your life if you're willing to put in the hours. This would probably have tipped the scale for me had I thought it through.
 
Jazzfanz said:
Do you know any attorneys that our looking to be in the collection field? My office is looking for a full in house attorney to file suits. Pay would be like 3500-40000 base plus unlimited commissons on what they bring in off tax farms judgements
Click to expand...

Yea pm me an email and I will give it to them
 
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