David Locke - Utah Jazz are NOT tanking

[The Midnight]

Because our team is competitive. 4-3 since dealine.

Ok forget about Hardy and the players for a sec.

What if I say the trade DA made was a tanking move? Would you agree that was the case?

 

[HermanG]

lol. under that definition no team has ever tanked and we should just bury the term as it relates to professional sports.

Google it. You use the term, so educate yourself with credible sources. There are multiple examples you will find along the way. Compare them to us.

 

[seattlejazzfan]

Ok forget about Hardy and the players for a sec.

What if I say the trade DA made was a tanking move? Would you agree that was the case?

or just a move to intentionally get worse so we don't have to deal with semantics. people can define tanking how they want (we can use Herman G's dictionary definition in which case no NBA team has ever tanked) but the fact is, the moves DA made were not made to make the team better. that's just a simple fact.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

But non-competitive IS the definition. Not less conpetitive. Google it.

Yes and scientists struggled for days and worked with governing bodies to come up with the correct definition of this term... good hell...

Here is the definition of competitive - having or displaying a strong desire to be more successful than others

Well by that definition I would say Danny made trades that suggest he does not have a strong desire to be more successful than other teams this year. He made the trades intentionally.

 

[seattlejazzfan]

Google it. You use the term, so educate yourself with credible sources. There are multiple examples you will find along the way. Compare them to us.

why should i google it? you posted it right there. using that definition, name one NBA team that has ever tanked.

 

[The Midnight]

This was the first game after the trade went down.

You can clearly see and hear it in Clarkson’s voice that he was disappointed with Conley leaving.

I think it’s this moment he realized DA had wanted to tank all along.


View: https://youtu.be/jdPGZ9wMMAU

 

[HermanG]

Ok forget about Hardy and the players for a sec.

What if I say the trade DA made was a tanking move? Would you agree that was the case?

I told you my definition of tanking is different. That move was made regardless of whether we win or lose more and regardless of whether we even own our pick.

Look at it from this perspective:
It gave more minutes to Sexton, Ochai and Kessler and more shots to Lauri, Clarkson, Sexton and Ochai.

Are those bad for our immediate success?

If they bench the 3 guys and make changes to rotations to achieve that... what happens to the value of those 3 players in the remainder of the season?

It is not as clear cut as you might think.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

You start flaming again... Stop with the nonsense of having to trade everything.

Thoae guys were traded and:
Kessler minutes increased by 5.1 per game since Vando was traded (25.7 from Jan 11 to Feb 8.. 30.8 since)
Lauri shots per game up by 4.6 (16.1 to 20.7)
Ochai minutes up by 13 per game, FGA up by 3.4

Not all that obvious those changes are bad for us.... our bench also did fine until we got few injuries and had to play Juzang et al.

Losing was not a priority, and you just cannot see it for whatever reason.

its not nonsense... its literally what you are doing. We send out 4 guys who would be in the rotation or starting right now and you say no big deal cuz Kessler plays 5 more minutes a night and an unproven rookie is now playing and Lauri is shooting a bit more while ignoring Simone, THT, Udoka, JTA, are all very much involved now and much worse players than the guys we sent out.

But because it wasn't Lauri, Kessler, and JC... well then does it even matter?

 

[seattlejazzfan]

I told you my definition of tanking is different. That move was made regardless of whether we win or lose more and regardless of whether we even own our pick.

Look at it from this perspective:
It gave more minutes to Sexton, Ochai and Kessler and more shots to Lauri, Clarkson, Sexton and Ochai.

Are those bad for our immediate success?

If they bench the 3 guys and make changes to rotations to achieve that... what happens to the value of those 3 players in the remainder of the season?

It is not as clear cut as you might think.

we get it. tanking doesn't and has never happened in professional sports. thanks for clearing that up.

 

[HermanG]

why should i google it? you posted it right there. using that definition, name one NBA team that has ever tanked.

Sixers tanked for 4 years. Spurs, Rockets and Pistons are not competitive by design this year.

 

[seattlejazzfan]

Sixers tanked for 4 years. Spurs, Rockets and Pistons are not competitive by design this year.

interesting. how is it possible to win games if you are non-competitive? they are obviously competitive if they are winning games against other NBA teams. if they weren't competitive, they'd lose every game by what, 30? 40? not sure what the number is, but they certainly would never win - by definition that makes them competitive. they were definitely as good or better than several teams at various points of the season.

com·pet·i·tive
/kəmˈpedədiv/

as good as or better than others of a comparable nature.

 

[HermanG]

its not nonsense... its literally what you are doing. We send out 4 guys who would be in the rotation or starting right now and you say no big deal cuz Kessler plays 5 more minutes a night and an unproven rookie is now playing and Lauri is shooting a bit more while ignoring Simone, THT, Udoka, JTA, are all very much involved now and much worse players than the guys we sent out.

But because it wasn't Lauri, Kessler, and JC... well then does it even matter?

You are the one who proposed the idea of trading Lauri to further the tank in October. Ive never said that.

Why are KO and JC still here?

 

[Tremendous Upside]

Explain to me how yanking out 3 starters from the team approaching the playoff race for effectively a future protected draft pick doesn’t constitute “intentionally fielding non-competitive team”?

You don’t do that if you want to make the playoffs.. and in fact no teams wanting to make the playoffs have done that or would even consider doing that. Unless they’re tanking.

Why didn't they just trade Lauri too then? His value has literally never been higher, he's pretty much the most efficient player in the league, and he's hurting the tank by playing HUGE minutes. Doesn't make any sense.

And before you say "Of course they won't trade him, they want to build around him"... that sounds and awful lot like the the Jazz have found their franchise guy. You don't tank if that's the case. You start using your treasure chest of assets, quickly, to put good players around the guy you see as the building block.

Tanking doesn't make sense because it separates Lauri's timeline from that of the team's. It increases both the risk of him not resigning AND, even if he does, the risk of him being past his prime by the time the team is finally competitive again. Why would Ainge do that? Why would he waste Lauri's best years by playing him with a bunch of scrubs and rookies?

Maybe DA doesn't quite believe in Lauri as much as the fanbase thinks he does. But in that case... trading him would have made even more sense. He would have brought back an absolute king's ransom.

 

[fishonjazz]

You ignored the key word "intentionally" in your early example.

Also Lauri didnt go off in our early start. He went off in late December. We had Sexton (24 PPG in 20-21) and Beasley (20 PPG in 19-20 and 20-21) IN OUR BENCH to start the season.

How is that a tanking team? We had the best bench in the league... probably on paper as well.

Everyone was fooled by the lack of household names... but Danny hoarded good players who werent in key roles hoping to find diamonds in the rough. Thats why he wanted Quickley as well.

I didnt ingnore the word intentionally. I think we intentionally fielded a non competitive team. That team turned into a surprisingly competitive one.

Lets say at the deadline we traded Lauri for Kyle Lowry. Now I bet everyone would say that was a tanking move. What if Lowry all the sudden started playing the best basketball of his career and we started winning even more? Now trading Lauri Markennan for Kyle Lowry would suddenly be a non tanking move i guess.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Sixers tanked for 4 years. Spurs, Rockets and Pistons are not competitive by design this year.

Nope... Spurs just prioritized youth. They are in a rebuild. Same with Rockets and Pistons. Rockets and Spurs waited until the deadline to offload vets... Pistons actually acquired Bogey (a vet).

 

[Elizah Huge]

Last night was the first time I thought to myself we were intentionally tanking.

What other reason would Hardy leave that horrid lineup in until we lost a double digit lead and we’re down 6 in the 4th?

 

[fishonjazz]

I have no idea whether or not we're tanking. The players are definitely trying to win, and I think Hardy is too for the most part. At the same time, I definitely think that the trade the front office made at the deadline was made with hopes that it would lead to more losses the rest of the season.

what else is Locke going to say? Do announcers for the Spurs and Rockets come out and say "Hey guys, we're tanking"?

Well the spurs obviously are not tanking. They just beat our ultra competitive team for one thing but the main way you know they aren't tanking? What team who was trying to lose would have arguably the greatest coach of all time coaching the team? A tanking team would obviously get rid of Pop and hire a dude in his mid 30's who has never been a head coach before.

 

[HermanG]

interesting. how is it possible to win games if you are non-competitive. they are obviously competitive if they are winning games.

Who are they competing with? We are in the play-in, competing at the same level with half of the west including the defending champions.

Not comparable.

 

[seattlejazzfan]

Who are they competing with? We are in the play-in, competing at the same level with half of the west including the defending champions.

Not comparable.

seems like you're saying the jazz are more competitive than those teams? maybe even a lot more competitive? is that fair?

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Why didn't they just trade Lauri too then? His value has literally never been higher, he's pretty much the most efficient player in the league, and he's hurting the tank by playing HUGE minutes. Doesn't make any sense.

See where my exaggeration is not an exaggeration at all.

And before you say "Of course they won't trade him, they want to build around him"... that sounds and awful lot like the the Jazz have found their franchise guy. You don't tank if that's the case. You start using your treasure chest of assets, quickly, to put good players around the guy you see as the building block.

Tanking doesn't make sense because it separates Lauri's timeline from that of the team's. It increases both the risk of him not resigning AND, even if does, the risk of him being past his prime by the time the team is finally competitive again. Why would Ainge do that? Why would he waste Lauri's best years by playing him with a bunch of scrubs and rookies?

Huh? Having maybe a generational talent next to a young AS or picking 8th this year instead of 15th separates timelines.

Maybe DA doesn't quite believe in Lauri as much as the fanbase thinks he does. But in that case... trading him would have made even more sense. He would have brought back an absolute king's ransom.

Wut?

Again it seems the anti-tankers seem to think unless you win zero games for infinity years its not a tank. There are degrees with this ****. There are articles written showing how this works and teams tanking from late lotto to mid lotto after the AS break. DA is literally following the manual. If Lauri and Walker are too good to let it happen then great... they will have to be amazing to keep us above .500