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Deron to the Mavs...not so fast

First of all, you don't even have your facts straight. They were 31-26 when he was traded. As for the Nets, no, they're not going to be worse than last year. Last year, in an 82-game season, they won 24 games. This year, in a 66-game season with 9 games left, they have 20 wins. Last year their winning percentage was .293. This year it's .351.

Get. Your. Facts. Right. Moron.

Second of all, you're just being deliberately obtuse. Last year's team had only been struggling for a month and you know it. In mid-January, they were 27-13 and one of the top teams in the NBA. YOU KNOW THIS. They were 27-13 despite Jefferson not getting off to a great start in Utah, despite getting almost nothing from their first-round pick up to that point, despite having no other guards or wings worth crap. (Do you remember last year's team? Boozer and Matthews gone. Okur hurt. Kirilenko past his prime. The disastrous signing of Raja Bell. Nothing from Hayward. Jefferson not fitting in. Williams and Millsap were the only bright spots. Again: They were 27-13.) You're essentially judging last year's team based solely on a chaotic one-month period during which Williams and Sloan were butting heads and Sloan eventually quit.

Oh, and do you remember what happened after Deron was traded? Of course you do. You're just playing dumb. The Jazz were 8-17 after the trade. You're also conveniently ignoring the previous 5 years, but I guess I can't really expect a more reasoned argument from you. You've proven yourself incapable of the task.

As for your original question, about what Deron is carrying. Once again, I ask you whether or not you've actually watched the Nets much this year, because I highly doubt it. I have watched the Nets. These are the facts: He has been their only offensive threat. Defenses are swallowing him up because they know he is the only offensive threat. Do you know the Nets' roster? They have one real player - Deron - and a bunch of players who have at best one skill. There's Kris Humphries, who's a great rebounder but doesn't do much else. There's Anthony Morrow, who's a great 3-point shooter but doesn't do much else. And those have been their second- and third-best players! The rest: Shelden Williams, Jordan Farmar, DeShawn Stevenson, Johan Petro, Damion James, Sundiata Gaines, Jordan Williams, Gerald Green (who has been out of the NBA for three years for god's sake), and MarShon Brooks, a promising rookie who nonetheless is still a rookie, and not especially adept at the NBA yet. Oh, and there's Brook Lopez, who's been injured for almost the entire season. (Five whole games!)

So yes, as I said in my original response, Deron is basically trying to do everything on a terrible, terrible team. When you're trying to carry the entire load like that (and when defenses are focusing all their attention on you), your shooting goes down and your turnovers go up. This is how it works. This is not difficult to understand.

I may have been a couple games off, but my argument still stands. If you want to extrapolate their win percentage this year to an 82 game season, it would mean they end up 5 games better. A max player has to be making a 15-20 game difference or you just grossly overpaid that player - and that is being nice. Lebron was a 40 game difference maker for the Cavs when he left.

I am not interested in cherry picking wins/losses from last year. Several indications were the early record was a fluke (miraculous comebacks, a borderline negative total point differential). The law of averages just caught up. The team was, for the most part, the same. AK was still solid and Miles was playing better last year than this. Despite a new coach, a new PG, and a revamped system, the Jazz have recovered in less than a year and no one seems to even miss Deron. You will see when the season ends the only GM's that pursue him are two or three teams whose owners who have no regard for the luxury tax. Watch and see (and learn).
 
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I may have been a couple games off, but my argument still stands. If you want to extrapolate their win percentage this year to an 82 game season, it would mean they end up 5 games better. A max player has to be making a 15-20 game difference or you just grossly overpaid that player - and that is being nice. Lebron was a 40 game difference maker for the Cavs when he left.

I am not interested in cherry picking wins/losses from last year. Several indications were the early record was a fluke (miraculous comebacks, a borderline negative total point differential). The law of averages just caught up. The team was, for the most part, the same. AK was still solid and Miles was playing better last year than this. Despite a new coach, a new PG, and a revamped system, the Jazz have recovered in less than a year and no one seems to even miss Deron. You will see when the season ends the only GM's that pursue him are two or three teams whose owners who have no regard for the luxury tax. Watch and see (and learn).

Oh my god, dude.

OK.

"No one seems to even miss Deron." Yeah, you're totally right. With this year's team + Deron, we would totally be exactly where we are now, outside the playoffs. Totally. You're totally right.

Because everything he's done in his career apparently counts for nothing - all that matters in your little brain is a one-month stretch in a transitional season in which he (you seem to conveniently forgotten) was carrying a team with a roster that was missing three crucial players from the previous season and whose pieces didn't fit yet. (An indisputable fact.)

As for a franchise player being required to make a 15-20 game difference to be considered a max player? Absurd. That's an arbitrary rule that you must made up. LeBron is an anomaly. He's probably the only player in the NBA that can make a 40-game difference - and even that's circumstantial. It's always circumstantial. Again, I'm assuming you know this, and are just playing dumb because it suits your short-sighted argument. Am I giving you too much credit?

When Michael Jordan retired in 1993, do you know how much of a dropoff the Chicago Bulls had the following year?

Two games. Two. Count 'em - TWO. They went from 57 wins to 55 wins. I guess that means Michael Jordan wasn't a franchise player. Let it be stated here, folks! "Jazz4ever" has a scoop! Michael Jordan wasn't a franchise player! Know why? Because he didn't make a 15-20 game difference! Logic, people! Logic!

As for your final point, about only 2-3 general managers that pursue him this offseason, OK, I'll bite. I'm still assuming you're bright enough to comprehend all this, but I'll spell out the argument anyway.

A) Only a few teams will have the resources to sign someone of Deron's caliber.

B) This has become a point guard-heavy league - many, many teams already have their point guards, and therefore wouldn't need to spend money on Deron.

C) Several other teams (Charlotte, etc) would never go after him because they're way, way too far away from building a legit team around him.

D) MOST marquee free agents only have a few suitors - for circumstantial reasons like those mentioned above. It's not like the Bulls would ignore Deron if he were a free agent and they didn't already have Derrick Rose.
 
If you have to make 4 factoid points why a team would not want to sign a max player, he is not worth the max. Your argument "B" of how many good PGs exist destroys your whole argument. Good point guards are not a scarce commodity, and it wouldn't be a prudent business decision to pay through the nose for a commodity. Econ 101. As for point "A", actually there are many teams with cap space this year. With the new amnesty clause, probably half the league could make cuts to get under the cap and try and sign Deron if he was really a superstar caliber player worth going after.....they won't.

The Bulls are a unique case because they had another top 50 player of all time, Pippen, and he was more than capable of handling a bigger work load. He had the best year of his career averaging 4 more points a game with no loss in effeciency. Kukoc and Kerr both arrived in 94 as well, who if you watched the Bulls, know were amazing in their system. They fell short in the playoffs. When Jordan returned in his first full year, playing with Pippen and Kukoc, they won 72 games and another championship.
 
Been reading the debate between anonymous and Jazz4ever and I'm trying to read it from an unbiased POV, but I am a Deron homer still and would love to get him back here with our big young 4 and have those 5 be our only players on the book going into the 2013/14 season. So naturally I agreeing with anonymous here, but Jazz4ever I just want to hear who you would consider max deal players. I no doubt would still consider Deron a max guy because he was the best player on (3) 50 win teams and sure he isn't a difference maker like Lebron/Wade/Kobe/Dwight/etc. that vein of players, but I think guys like a Deron who are good enough to lead their teams to good records and playoff success are deserving.
 
Been reading the debate between anonymous and Jazz4ever and I'm trying to read it from an unbiased POV, but I am a Deron homer still and would love to get him back here with our big young 4 and have those 5 be our only players on the book going into the 2013/14 season. So naturally I agreeing with anonymous here, but Jazz4ever I just want to hear who you would consider max deal players. I no doubt would still consider Deron a max guy because he was the best player on (3) 50 win teams and sure he isn't a difference maker like Lebron/Wade/Kobe/Dwight/etc. that vein of players, but I think guys like a Deron who are good enough to lead their teams to good records and playoff success are deserving.

Dwight, Lebron, Wade, Howard, Paul, Rose, Durant, Dirk, Duncan, KG (at the time)...off the top of my head. Deron has not improved much, by any metric, since his 4th season. His shot, especially the 3 ball, never became consistent. His rookie year remains his best year in that department. His turnovers have always been high compared to guys like Paul and Nash. His defense is average, at best, for his position. So that doesn't leave many categories to justify the max. Would he be great with the young guys? Maybe not as much as you think. Hayward certainly broke out after Deron left. Al played better as well. Sap remained about the same. Let's not forget Deron will be 28 by the time he starts his next contract, and the vast majority of all players begin steady declines at 30.
 
Dwight, Lebron, Wade, Howard, Paul, Rose, Durant, Dirk, Duncan, KG (at the time)...off the top of my head. Deron has not improved much, by any metric, since his 4th season. His shot, especially the 3 ball, never became consistent. His rookie year remains his best year in that department. His turnovers have always been high compared to guys like Paul and Nash. His defense is average, at best, for his position. So that doesn't leave many categories to justify the max. Would he be great with the young guys? Maybe not as much as you think. Hayward certainly broke out after Deron left. Al played better as well. Sap remained about the same. Let's not forget Deron will be 28 by the time he starts his next contract, and the vast majority of all players begin steady declines at 30.

Look at the Bulls' and Heat's record without Rose and Wade - obviously not max/franchise players either.
 
It's astounding the lengths people go to convince themselves that their ex-girlfriends are suddenly too fat and complete bitches.
 
One of the espn columnists was saying that the Lakers could sign and trade Gasol, a scenario similar to the Dwight-to-LA rumors.

I missed something key. Teams >$4 million over the tax cannot receive a player in a sign-and-trade, but AFTER 2013-'14. So yeah, I guess they might be able to.
 
Hayward certainly broke out after Deron left. Al played better as well. Sap remained about the same.

Hayward broke out against the Clippers on December 29th. Unless you want to conveniently define your parameters for breakout. I'll tell you why I consider that his breakout game. He had never scored double-digits in a game to that point, and he hadn't scored at all in the first half. Halfway through the 3rd quarter, something happened, and he ended up scoring 17 points in the remaining time. His next two games he finished with double digits.

The hard truth with Hayward is that he was an awful NBA basketball player until one week before that night, where he scored 5 points down the stretch in a close game against the Timberwolves (which you could also say was a breakout game). Honestly, to that point, I am not sure I could say I have seen a less effective, plainly unready, and over-matched player. But that's Deron's fault too, I guess.

Al Jefferson didn't have a clue how to let other people help him score, or how to help others score. He's figured some of that out, but he's still just not a PnR big. That Al improved after all of this on a bad team tells you everything you should've already known about Al Jefferson and how important his contributions were to winning basketball.

Paul Millsap is the only player you mentioned out of the three (and the only one on the Jazz), that showed he could play (winning) basketball with any real consistency for the entire season.
 
Deron no longer matters. he is not part of the jazz organization and was a baby. Dallas is full of ****ing bitches. We should no longer acknowledge him.
 
If you have to make 4 factoid points why a team would not want to sign a max player, he is not worth the max. Your argument "B" of how many good PGs exist destroys your whole argument. Good point guards are not a scarce commodity, and it wouldn't be a prudent business decision to pay through the nose for a commodity. Econ 101. As for point "A", actually there are many teams with cap space this year. With the new amnesty clause, probably half the league could make cuts to get under the cap and try and sign Deron if he was really a superstar caliber player worth going after.....they won't.

Uh....

Yeah, I really think you must have misunderstood your Econ 101 class - or in this case, certainly misappropriated the logic of it. It does not fit in this situation. Good point guards are not scarce, that is true - but in sports, if anything, that can make them MORE valuable. If a league is being dominated by point guards, you're WAY behind the 8-ball if you don't have a good one. Unless, of course, you have a huge advantage at other positions (like the Heat, who have arguably the two best wings in the league, both of whom need the ball in their hands), or run a system that doesn't rely as much on the point guard (i.e. the triangle).

For teams that have good (but not necessarily elite) point guards and more pressing needs elsewhere (i.e. the Rockets)? Yes, you're right - they'd be better off spending their money elsewhere. But that has to do with a specific team's needs - not a player's overall value.

And even the scarcity you spoke of is relative. Do you know how many elite point guards are available this summer?

Two (2). That's it. And one of them (Nash) is 38.

Let's transplant your logic to the NFL. By your logic, if Drew Brees were to become a free agent (in what is currently a league with a huge number of strong quarterbacks), it would not be "prudent" for the Saints (or anyone) to give him a max contract. So, in your mind, they'd be better off...what, going with an inferior quarterback instead of paying a few extra mil per year? Is that what you'd advise if you were running the show?

Let's play a game. You tell me one team (I only need one!) that needs a point guard, and that has everything a marquee PG on the free agent market would be looking for - 1) a roster built to win or and/or a foundation/budget to build that roster; 2) significant salary cap space; 3) and this is debatable, but I'll say a decent-sized market counts as well - that will consciously decide to NOT go after Deron this summer. Just give me ONE TEAM.

Give me one team that fits that description (aside from the Jazz, of course) who - if they were told that Deron Williams wanted to sign with them - would actually say no, and wouldn't give him a max deal.

I'll make it easier for you. There isn't one.

The Bulls are a unique case because they had another top 50 player of all time, Pippen, and he was more than capable of handling a bigger work load. He had the best year of his career averaging 4 more points a game with no loss in effeciency. Kukoc and Kerr both arrived in 94 as well, who if you watched the Bulls, know were amazing in their system. They fell short in the playoffs. When Jordan returned in his first full year, playing with Pippen and Kukoc, they won 72 games and another championship.

Correct! Which proves exactly what I was saying - that someone's "value" to one team is completely circumstantial. Your made-up, bulls**t standard of "to be a max player, you have to make 15-20 game difference" is still made-up bulls**t. The difference a player makes on one team always depends on the circumstances of the team he leaves or joins. ALWAYS.

If you honestly believe that if right now, Deron joined this version of the Utah Jazz, the Jazz wouldn't be dramatically superior than they are right now...well, then I don't know what to tell you. Because if you don't believe he'd make a huge difference, you're a genuinely delusional individual.
 
Dwight, Lebron, Wade, Howard, Paul, Rose, Durant, Dirk, Duncan, KG (at the time)...off the top of my head. Deron has not improved much, by any metric, since his 4th season. His shot, especially the 3 ball, never became consistent. His rookie year remains his best year in that department. His turnovers have always been high compared to guys like Paul and Nash.

From his first full season (2006-07) through this season, Deron's turnover numbers are as follows: 3.1, 3.4, 3.4, 3.3, 3.5, 3.9

Nash's turnover numbers through that same stretch: 3.8, 3.6, 3.4, 3.6, 3.5, 3.5

See, it would be a lot easier to respect you if you didn't keep getting CATEGORICALLY PROVEN WRONG. Poor logic (or non-logic) is one thing, but you're too lazy to even check your facts.

As for Paul - yes, he's always been safer with the ball than Deron. Deron is too wild with the ball sometimes. That much is true.

But it amuses me that you pick apart certain aspects of Deron's game while, in practically the same breath, listing Derrick Rose as a max player. Rose is an even more erratic shooter than Deron, isn't NEARLY as good a passer, and is a worse defender.

His defense is average, at best, for his position.

Wrong again. Watch Rose or Nash play defense and then get back to me.

So that doesn't leave many categories to justify the max. Would he be great with the young guys? Maybe not as much as you think. Hayward certainly broke out after Deron left. Al played better as well. Sap remained about the same. Let's not forget Deron will be 28 by the time he starts his next contract, and the vast majority of all players begin steady declines at 30.

First of all, you made that up.

Secondly, that depends on position (centers decline more rapidly, especially after about the age of 32). Third, it has as much or more to do with total games played - the overall mileage - than actual age. Fourth, taking everything into account and looking at history (particularly recent history), 27-32 is probably the peak for the majority of NBA stars (a slight decline in full physical capability but a significant advantage in basketball IQ, experience, etc.), meaning anyone who signed Deron to a max deal (which would be 4-5 years), would be getting the entirety of the rest of his prime. And that's not including the many good years he will likely have after the age of 32. Look over the league and look at how many elite players are in their 30s. No, really - go ahead. Look.

Oh, and he's only one year older than Jazz4ever-anointed max player Chris Paul - and Deron's way more physically equipped to have longevity than Paul is. By a longshot.
 
^^ Steve Nash is 38! In his prime, Deron's age, Nash was well under 3. That was implied, but it looks like you'll use anything to make a case at this point. What's sad is Nash at 38 is better than Deron at 27.
As for Rose, he doesn't need to rely on traditional PG skills because he is a freak. The most athletic player to every play the position. Perhaps you weren't watching but his domination of Deron was the straw that broke the camels back between him and Sloan. Did you really say Deron is a better defender than Rose? It's not even close. Rose holds his opponents to 11 PER, Williams "holds" then to 17. Thats a quick and dirty metric, but going by advanced synergy ratings, he is #1 and #2 on most everything for his position.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles...every-starting-point-guard-in-the-nba/page/35

It seems you don't really have anything concrete besides a mancrush and nostalgia going for you here.
 
Deron is one of my favorite players of all time. I dont care about what his numbers are or were. I hold no grudge against him and I believe he still has it too. His numbers are just down because the way Deron handles things and the situation. I GUARANTEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE! that he will ball out his mind again if he gets on a good team again.

I know what I saw when I watched him. When things were clicking it was very good basketball. The guy knows how to win.

You all seen it too, but some of you are just haters.
 
^^ Steve Nash is 38! In his prime, Deron's age, Nash was well under 3. That was implied, but it looks like you'll use anything to make a case at this point. What's sad is Nash at 38 is better than Deron at 27.
As for Rose, he doesn't need to rely on traditional PG skills because he is a freak. The most athletic player to every play the position. Perhaps you weren't watching but his domination of Deron was the straw that broke the camels back between him and Sloan. Did you really say Deron is a better defender than Rose? It's not even close. Rose holds his opponents to 11 PER, Williams "holds" then to 17. Thats a quick and dirty metric, but going by advanced synergy ratings, he is #1 and #2 on most everything for his position.


https://bleacherreport.com/articles...every-starting-point-guard-in-the-nba/page/35

It seems you don't really have anything concrete besides a mancrush and nostalgia going for you here.

This post is a little unfair.

First of all, a little above 3 TOs a game is not bad for guys that dominate the ball. Also Deron has not been nearly the defender he was ever since he decided to break with Sloan. Deron under Sloan was a very good defensive PG. Seriously. Since then Deron went south with defying his HOF coach, crying to refs constantly, mailing it in, you name it. Deron has been very unimpressive since his Utah coup.

I'm sure you will reply with the obvious argument that these things matter and the stats don't lie. That's true. However Deron is special. If and when he goes to a real team with real talent you will see the real Deron again. What DWill has that very few other players have is an unquenchable thirst for not losing. I have only seen 2 players in a Jazz uniform that hated losing more.

Deron Williams will win again. Not for Utah but he will.
 
Take this for what it's worth, but Hans said he was golfing with one of Deron's best friends and said friend Said Deron would never play in Dallas due to the circus he would have to deal with being from there.
 
Take this for what it's worth, but Hans said he was golfing with one of Deron's best friends and said friend Said Deron would never play in Dallas due to the circus he would have to deal with being from there.

I can't remember who posted this, but I remember reading on Jazzfanz that someone said Deron's wife wanted to move to a quite place like Utah.

So those two thing kinda go hand in hand, .......
 
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