Deron to the Mavs...not so fast

[Scorpjazz]

Im not a huge DWill guy anymore, but to state or even think he wouldnt greatly improve this team is sorta silly, at best.
The guy is a star PG, whether or not you might like his attitude or bearing. I would take DWill at his worst over Harris at his best pretty much. easily
Wont happen anyway, but the argument that he wouldnt help the Jazz is stupid, IMO

 

[anonymous832]

^^ Steve Nash is 38! In his prime, Deron's age, Nash was well under 3. That was implied, but it looks like you'll use anything to make a case at this point. What's sad is Nash at 38 is better than Deron at 27.

Jesus.

I think you're really, really confused by the word "prime." Physical prime is not the same thing as basketball prime. Basketball prime varies from player to player. As you surely must know (there you go, intentionally playing dumb again), Nash has had the best years of his career in his 30s. He was markedly better in his 30s with Phoenix than he ever was in Dallas. Those years were his basketball prime. You realize he won two league MVPs in his 30s, yes? You follow basketball, yes?

But just for good measure, I'll add that his turnover-per-game averages in his two MVP seasons were 3.3 and 3.5. Which once again proves your previous argument - about how Deron's turnovers have "always been high compared to ... Nash" - false.

At this point you're just being disingenuous. You know perfectly well that when you made that argument, you weren't talking about Nash's early days in Dallas, before he was ever considered a top-20 player. You know that. You're just being dishonest. Are we really expected to believe that you were comparing Deron Williams and Chris Paul to the 26-year-old Nash who averaged 4.9 assists per game? Or the 27-year-old Nash who averaged 7.3 assists per game?

Please. You're insulting everyone else's intelligence. Just be an adult, admit you were mistaken about Nash's turnover numbers compared to those of Deron, and move on.

As for Rose, he doesn't need to rely on traditional PG skills because he is a freak. The most athletic player to every play the position. Perhaps you weren't watching but his domination of Deron was the straw that broke the camels back between him and Sloan. Did you really say Deron is a better defender than Rose? It's not even close. Rose holds his opponents to 11 PER, Williams "holds" then to 17. Thats a quick and dirty metric, but going by advanced synergy ratings, he is #1 and #2 on most everything for his position.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles...every-starting-point-guard-in-the-nba/page/35

It seems you don't really have anything concrete besides a mancrush and nostalgia going for you here.

Now I feel bad, because the more you write the more I'm convinced that you're probably like 14 years old or something. In which case this whole argument has been unfair to you.

The fact that you insist that I don't have anything concrete is laughable. Anyone who's reading this thread can see this. I've picked apart every single one of your arguments, usually point by point, exposed your blatant factual errors, torn apart your often unsupported (and unsupportable) arguments, and in general eviscerated your entire point of view on this matter. Still you persist - and if that's not enough, you use, of all, things, an article from effing BLEACHER REPORT to support your hypothesis. My god - BLEACHER REPORT? You realize that site is made up of unpaid amateur writers, and that they'll basically hire anyone? You realize that, right? It's Bleacher Report, dude.

Here's a fast fact for you: Derrick Rose had the worst defensive plus-minus of any regular rotation player on last year's Bulls team. And his defensive numbers as a whole are dramatically improved by the fact that the defense around him, in Thibodeau's system, is so dominant. Thibodeau's system could make Amar'e Stoudemire look like a half-decent defender.

Admittedly, Rose improved defensively last year - that much is true. But that's also not saying a whole lot, because up until last year he was a complete defensive catastrophe. Everyone who actually watched the Bulls knows this.

It's also true that Deron's D has regressed. But I think it's only fair to look both at A) an entire body of work; B) the circumstances surrounding the player in question, and the effects that might have on the player's performance. If you look at Deron's defense for the first several years of his career - basically before he started clashing with Sloan - he was 1000% better than Rose. At BEST, Rose has pulled even with him. At BEST. And, as mentioned before, he had a much, much better defensive system protecting him than Williams has.

 

[NUMBERICA]

Really liking this dude. ^

 

[Jazz4ever]

First off, the article was from Bleacher report but the numbers were from Synergy Sports. You obviously were so anxious to try and prove me wrong you didn't even read it. That or you have no idea what Synergy even does. High five! GMs actually use their data to help them make million dollar decisions. They do not use any type of vanilla +/-, like you are referring to, way too many variables. There are forms of adjusted +/- Cuban and Morey have been said to use but are not available to the public. I digress, even if I concede you they are equal on defense, Rose kills him so badly on offense it's not really close. Rose has easily shown he can handle scoring 25 points a game with good efficiency at age 22. Deron has showed not only this year, but even on the Jazz, 21 PPG is about his max without a huge drop in efficiency. Rose is the better player at 23, and will be monumentally better at 26. Even the most hardened Jazz homers have come to terms with this (except you, apparently). Just for kicks, find me one recent article of any sports writer picking Williams over Rose as the better PG.

It doesn't help Deron's case even if Nash was over 3 turnovers in his "non physical" prime, because then I'm going to compare Nash doing 50/90/40, only a few players have ever sniffed that. Deron will be be lucky to be doing 40/80/30 at age 30. In the end, one is a first ballot hall of famer, the other will likely have an all NBA second team selection or all star reserve as his most prized trophy.

Genuine question for you: what was the last NBA champion who had a max PG?