Donald is about to go through some things...

[Deleted member 365]

Hard to believe, but I 100% agree with Trump about this. It's unfathomable, but it also shows how deep it runs:

"I could stand in the middle of Fifth Avenue and shoot somebody, and I wouldn't lose any voters, OK?"

Trump could eat a baby on live TV and his crazed cult would cheer him on. Well… as long as the baby wasn’t white.

 

[LogGrad98]

What we are learning that is really concerning is how much overt corruption we are willing to tolerate as long as it fits our personal views and makes us feel like we are getting a better deal. The fact that we really don't hold any politicians accountable for, well for anything really, in terms of who we elect, is telling. Of course politicians for life have always been part of the political zeitgeist, but I think we are seeing some unprecedented willingness to just blatantly lay it out there, engage in gaslighting, and then see that nothing happens as a result. Or that they even get more and more zealous support. It is really disturbing on many levels.

 

[gandalfe]

Trump could eat a baby on live TV and his crazed cult would cheer him on. Well… as long as the baby wasn’t white.

What if the baby was white but the parents are gay?

 

[Al-O-Meter]

What we are learning that is really concerning is how much overt corruption we are willing to tolerate as long as it fits our personal views and makes us feel like we are getting a better deal. The fact that we really don't hold any politicians accountable for, well for anything really, in terms of who we elect, is telling. Of course politicians for life have always been part of the political zeitgeist, but I think we are seeing some unprecedented willingness to just blatantly lay it out there, engage in gaslighting, and then see that nothing happens as a result. Or that they even get more and more zealous support. It is really disturbing on many levels.

I agree with everything you wrote there. I don't believe either side is being honest here or in most of our political discourse, but a corrupt FBI frightens me more than a corrupt former president. I'm not saying I believe the Trump narrative but it is more plausible than the FBI's story. As everyone seems happy to retreat to their own silos of information, here are the dominant competing narratives:

THE PRO-MERRICK GARLAND NARRATIVE:
Trump stole some documents from the White House upon his departure. A person near Trump, likely one of his Secret Service detail, discovered a document or documents that constituted a risk to national security and he informed the proper authorities who got a warrant to recover the document or documents along with any other improperly taken property belonging to the federal government.

THE PRO-TRUMP NARRATIVE:
The documents Trump took were unredacted documents in his possession at the White House that contained evidence along with naming names in the FBI surrounding the events of Hillary's email investigation and the Russia collusion investigation. He didn't trust the government to ever release these classified documents in unredacted form and so he declassified them and took them to eventually put on public display in his Donald J. Trump Presidential Library whenever he got around to building it.

The problem with the pro-Merrick Garland narrative is Biden said he wasn't advised before the raid which means whatever Trump had, it couldn't have been an issue of national security because the President would have needed to have been in the loop. The issues of justice and national security are very different. If it were an issue of justice then it is conceivable the President could want that to be independent but never ever should that be the case with issues of national security. Either Biden is lying and/or more likely the whole 'national security' thing is an excuse made up after the fact. Even the claims of mishandling of classified information are far fetched seeing as the President has the power to declassify anything at any time, and anyone making the claim of mishandling of classified documents would have to prove Trump never thought to declassify them. Good luck trying to prove the thoughts in Trump's head in court. Lastly, even the Presidential Records Act cannot serve as the basis for a search warrant because it is not a criminal statute.

I have no idea if what Trump is saying is complete bovine manure but I do know the pro-Merrick Garland narrative has some serious plot holes.

 

[Avery]

From what I can tell, it seems the search was only deemed necessary after every exhaustive effort was made for sensitive information to be returned. Similar to someone owing you money or borrowing your tools, it kind of feels like it only escalated due to one party simply dragging their feet time and time again. I'll just copy/paste the CNN info:

Here's a timeline of the key moments from the investigation:

• May 2021: An official from NARA contacts Trump's team after realizing that several important documents weren't handed over before Trump left the White House. In hopes of locating the missing items, NARA lawyer Gary Stern reaches out to someone who served in the White House counsel's office under Trump who was the point of contact for record-keeping matters. The missing documents include some of Trump's correspondence with North Korean leader Kim Jong Un, as well as the map of Hurricane Dorian that Trump infamously altered with a Sharpie pen.
• Fall 2021: NARA grows frustrated with the slow pace of document turnover after several months of conversations with the Trump team. Stern reaches out to another Trump attorney to intervene. The archivist asks about several boxes of records that were apparently taken to Mar-a-Lago during Trump's relocation to Florida. NARA still doesn't receive the White House documents they are searching for.
• January 2022: After months of discussions with Trump's team, NARA retrieves 15 boxes of Trump White House records from Mar-a-Lago. NARA says in a statement that some of the records it received at the end of Trump's administration were "torn up by former President Trump," and that White House officials had to tape them back together. Not all the torn-up documents were reconstructed, NARA says.
• Feb. 9, 2022: News outlets, including CNN, report that NARA asked the Justice Department to investigate Trump's handling of White House records and whether he violated the Presidential Records Act and other laws related to classified information. The Presidential Records Act requires all records created by a sitting president to be turned over to the National Archives at the end of their administration.
• Feb. 18, 2022: NARA informs the Justice Department that some of the documents retrieved from Mar-a-Lago included classified material. NARA also tells the department that, despite being warned it was illegal, Trump tore up documents while he was president, and that senior officials in the Trump administration did not properly preserve their social media messages, draft tweets and deleted tweets.
• April and May 2022: On April 7, NARA publicly acknowledges for the first time that the Justice Department is involved, and news outlets report that prosecutors have launched a criminal probe into Trump's mishandling of classified documents. Around this time, FBI agents quietly interview Trump aides at Mar-a-Lago about the handling of presidential records as part of their widening investigation.
• May 12, 2022: News outlets report that investigators subpoenaed NARA for access to the classified documents retrieved from Mar-a-Lago. The subpoena, which is part of the process to allow investigators to take possession of the documents from the NARA, is the first public indication of the Justice Department using a grand jury in its investigation.
• June 3, 2022: Four investigators, including a top Justice Department counterintelligence official, visit Mar-a-Lago seeking more information about classified material that had been taken to Florida. The four investigators meet with two of Trump's attorneys, Christina Bobb and Evan Corcoran, and look around the basement room where the documents are being stored. Trump briefly stops by the meeting to say hello to the officials, but he does not answer any questions.
• June 8, 2022: Trump's attorneys receive a letter from federal investigators, asking them to further secure the room where documents are being stored. In response, Trump aides add a padlock to the room in the basement of Mar-a-Lago.
• Aug. 8, 2022: The FBI executes a search warrant at Mar-a-Lago — a major escalation of the classified documents investigation. The search focused on the area of the club where Trump's offices and personal quarters are located. Federal agents remove boxes of material from the property. The search was the first time in American history that a former president's home was searched as part of a criminal investigation.
• Aug. 11, 2022: After three days of silence, Attorney General Merrick Garland makes a brief public statement about the investigation. He reveals that he personally approved the decision to seek a search warrant, and pushes back against what he called "unfounded attacks on the professionalism of the FBI and Justice Department." Garland also announces that the Justice Department will ask a judge to unseal some of the search warrant documents. Trump says in a late-night post on his Truth Social platform that he will "not oppose the release of documents" related to the search.

 

[fishonjazz]

I agree with everything you wrote there. I don't believe either side is being honest here or in most of our political discourse, but a corrupt FBI frightens me more than a corrupt former president. I'm not saying I believe the Trump narrative but it is more plausible than the FBI's story. As everyone seems happy to retreat to their own silos of information, here are the dominant competing narratives:

THE PRO-MERRICK GARLAND NARRATIVE:
Trump stole some documents from the White House upon his departure. A person near Trump, likely one of his Secret Service detail, discovered a document or documents that constituted a risk to national security and he informed the proper authorities who got a warrant to recover the document or documents along with any other improperly taken property belonging to the federal government.

THE PRO-TRUMP NARRATIVE:
The documents Trump took were unredacted documents in his possession at the White House that contained evidence along with naming names in the FBI surrounding the events of Hillary's email investigation and the Russia collusion investigation. He didn't trust the government to ever release these classified documents in unredacted form and so he declassified them and took them to eventually put on public display in his Donald J. Trump Presidential Library whenever he got around to building it.

The problem with the pro-Merrick Garland narrative is Biden said he wasn't advised before the raid which means whatever Trump had, it couldn't have been an issue of national security because the President would have needed to have been in the loop. The issues of justice and national security are very different. If it were an issue of justice then it is conceivable the President could want that to be independent but never ever should that be the case with issues of national security. Either Biden is lying and/or more likely the whole 'national security' thing is an excuse made up after the fact. Even the claims of mishandling of classified information are far fetched seeing as the President has the power to declassify anything at any time, and anyone making the claim of mishandling of classified documents would have to prove Trump never thought to declassify them. Good luck trying to prove the thoughts in Trump's head in court. Lastly, even the Presidential Records Act cannot serve as the basis for a search warrant because it is not a criminal statute.

I have no idea if what Trump is saying is complete bovine manure but I do know the pro-Merrick Garland narrative has some serious plot holes.

The problem with the pro trump narrative is that he still took documents that he wasn't allowed to take. In both narratives none of this going on now happens if trump simply follows the rules in place that every other president followed. Dont take the documents and this discussion never happens.

 

[fishonjazz]

From what I can tell, it seems the search was only deemed necessary after every exhaustive effort was made for sensitive information to be returned. Similar to someone owing you money or borrowing your tools, it kind of feels like it only escalated due to one party simply dragging their feet time and time again. I'll just copy/paste the CNN info:

Here's a timeline of the key moments from the investigation:

• May 2021: An official from NARA contacts Trump's team after realizing that several important documents weren't handed over before Trump left the White House. In hopes of locating the missing items, NARA lawyer Gary Stern reaches out to someone who served in the White House counsel's office under Trump who was the point of contact for record-keeping matters. The missing documents include some of Trump's correspondence with North Korean leader Kim Jong Un, as well as the map of Hurricane Dorian that Trump infamously altered with a Sharpie pen.
• Fall 2021: NARA grows frustrated with the slow pace of document turnover after several months of conversations with the Trump team. Stern reaches out to another Trump attorney to intervene. The archivist asks about several boxes of records that were apparently taken to Mar-a-Lago during Trump's relocation to Florida. NARA still doesn't receive the White House documents they are searching for.
• January 2022: After months of discussions with Trump's team, NARA retrieves 15 boxes of Trump White House records from Mar-a-Lago. NARA says in a statement that some of the records it received at the end of Trump's administration were "torn up by former President Trump," and that White House officials had to tape them back together. Not all the torn-up documents were reconstructed, NARA says.
• Feb. 9, 2022: News outlets, including CNN, report that NARA asked the Justice Department to investigate Trump's handling of White House records and whether he violated the Presidential Records Act and other laws related to classified information. The Presidential Records Act requires all records created by a sitting president to be turned over to the National Archives at the end of their administration.
• Feb. 18, 2022: NARA informs the Justice Department that some of the documents retrieved from Mar-a-Lago included classified material. NARA also tells the department that, despite being warned it was illegal, Trump tore up documents while he was president, and that senior officials in the Trump administration did not properly preserve their social media messages, draft tweets and deleted tweets.
• April and May 2022: On April 7, NARA publicly acknowledges for the first time that the Justice Department is involved, and news outlets report that prosecutors have launched a criminal probe into Trump's mishandling of classified documents. Around this time, FBI agents quietly interview Trump aides at Mar-a-Lago about the handling of presidential records as part of their widening investigation.
• May 12, 2022: News outlets report that investigators subpoenaed NARA for access to the classified documents retrieved from Mar-a-Lago. The subpoena, which is part of the process to allow investigators to take possession of the documents from the NARA, is the first public indication of the Justice Department using a grand jury in its investigation.
• June 3, 2022: Four investigators, including a top Justice Department counterintelligence official, visit Mar-a-Lago seeking more information about classified material that had been taken to Florida. The four investigators meet with two of Trump's attorneys, Christina Bobb and Evan Corcoran, and look around the basement room where the documents are being stored. Trump briefly stops by the meeting to say hello to the officials, but he does not answer any questions.
• June 8, 2022: Trump's attorneys receive a letter from federal investigators, asking them to further secure the room where documents are being stored. In response, Trump aides add a padlock to the room in the basement of Mar-a-Lago.
• Aug. 8, 2022: The FBI executes a search warrant at Mar-a-Lago — a major escalation of the classified documents investigation. The search focused on the area of the club where Trump's offices and personal quarters are located. Federal agents remove boxes of material from the property. The search was the first time in American history that a former president's home was searched as part of a criminal investigation.
• Aug. 11, 2022: After three days of silence, Attorney General Merrick Garland makes a brief public statement about the investigation. He reveals that he personally approved the decision to seek a search warrant, and pushes back against what he called "unfounded attacks on the professionalism of the FBI and Justice Department." Garland also announces that the Justice Department will ask a judge to unseal some of the search warrant documents. Trump says in a late-night post on his Truth Social platform that he will "not oppose the release of documents" related to the search.

Pretty clear and cut and dry. A: dont take documents. That is against the rules. B: Return them all when asked to (but again, just dont take them in the first place)

 

[fishonjazz]

I wouldn't be surprised if this was all part of trumps (and putins) plan. Divide the country even more. Sow more distrust in our institutions (putin is probably loving this aspect). Plus get to be in the public limelight even more which he loves.

 

[Al-O-Meter]

The problem with the pro trump narrative is that he still took documents that he wasn't allowed to take. In both narratives none of this going on now happens if trump simply follows the rules in place that every other president followed. Dont take the documents and this discussion never happens.

Here on Earth every US President since Herbert Hoover has a Presidential Library in which documents from their administration are displayed.

 

[One Brow]

I'm not saying I believe the Trump narrative but it is more plausible than the FBI's story.

Unlikely.

THE PRO-TRUMP NARRATIVE:
The documents Trump took were unredacted documents in his possession at the White House that contained evidence along with naming names in the FBI surrounding the events of Hillary's email investigation and the Russia collusion investigation. He didn't trust the government to ever release these classified documents in unredacted form and so he declassified them and took them to eventually put on public display in his Donald J. Trump Presidential Library whenever he got around to building it.

This is just stupid. Seriously. If Trump had documents regarding supposed corruption in the FBI on the Clinton email investigation or in the Russian influence probe, he doesn't just sit on it. He releases it and talks about it as soon as he sees it. The man has almost no impulse control.

The problem with the pro-Merrick Garland narrative is Biden said he wasn't advised before the raid which means whatever Trump had, it couldn't have been an issue of national security because the President would have needed to have been in the loop.

Evidence for this claim, please?

The issues of justice and national security are very different. If it were an issue of justice then it is conceivable the President could want that to be independent but never ever should that be the case with issues of national security.

So, this is just your opinion, not based on any process. I've worked in companies that built software for use in TS/SCI systems. No one needed to consult the President on system design or security. I'm sure the Justice Department/FBI is full of people with sufficient clearance, including Garland himself.

The notion that Biden would need to be involved must be comfortable fiction for you, but it is a fiction.

Even the claims of mishandling of classified information are far fetched seeing as the President has the power to declassify anything at any time, and anyone making the claim of mishandling of classified documents would have to prove Trump never thought to declassify them.

No, they would only need to show Trump did not *act* to declassify them.

 

[Red]

Who is this guy, really?

I’m leaning toward him being exactly who I’ve thought he was…

Trump under investigation for potential violations of Espionage Act, warrant reveals

Details contained in explosive search warrant show US officials investigating whether three criminal statutes violated

www.theguardian.com

 

[One Brow]

Here on Earth every US President since Herbert Hoover has a Presidential Library in which documents from their administration are displayed.

Even the Presidential libraries trust the storage of documents to the National Archives.