Erin Andrews - Awarded $55M

[fishonjazz]

Fish, I'm sorry that you have to live through such terrible experiences. I'm glad you've been able to move past it.

Thank you! That means allot.

I think that sometimes there is pressure on a man to just man up when something bad happens to them, which can be a good thing but isn't always the right or best thing, and I don't have my daughter yet so I'm probably projecting, in this thread, some of what I have been taught onto my fellow jazzfanzers.

I bet I will become allot more sensitive to these kinds of things when I have my daughter.

 

[Joe Bagadonuts]

Fish, (and Joe, etc...)
I don't doubt that you're a good guy (good husbands, great dads) and I'm guessing ultimately we really do all want the same goal. Happy, well-adjusted children. So I hope we're just mis-firing on communicating that. Of course I wouldn't want people to be depressed and bouncing back is the ultimate goal. I'll teach you something about raising kids... you need empathy, lots of it. That doesn't mean they get out of things, the complete opposite. A little bit of, "I'm sorry that you went through that and are feeling this way", and then some, "how can I help you?" but letting them fix it.

I want my daughters and everyone else's to have a sense of humor, and be able to let things roll off their back, but I also want them to know that if someone is saying or doing inappropriate things that they don't just "have to deal with it, and take it." They can leave, they can say something, they are empowered to change the situation, etc... RAWR! I want them to know how a good man needs to treat them, and to not settle for anything less, but they need our support and us showing them how to do that. That's all I'm saying.

I'm in full agreement. I'm sure a lot gets lost in translation when communicating only via text. My life is full of women who are important to me (including three daughters who I'm crazy about). Women's rights are important to me. That doesn't mean there is no limit to how far I believe they should be taken. The Andrews verdict crossed my limit by a wide margin.

I have very negative feelings about the impacts these sorts of lawsuits are having on our society. I am not saying there aren't appropriate instances, but even in those situations it usually goes way too far. My mom died of cancer a couple of years ago. Her illness was determined to be the result of a hormone replacement therapy she had been prescribed. Predictably, our family was approached by lawyers and others who said we should join a class action lawsuit. it was my dad's choice. He didn't do it because he feels similar to me about this situation. He definitely gave up money he would have won if he had pursued his case, but the principal of taking personal responsibility was more important to him. I greatly respect him for that.

 

[♪alt13]

No, what I'm getting that is that women never have the ****ing choice. Hate it or love it, they are going to need to prioritize being beautiful if they are to win the respect of our sexist society. There is absolutely nothing wrong with priding yourself on whatever the social-construct of beauty happens to be. The problem is that this is unfairly deified for women, and it leads to the slew of problems that our sisters face today. The choice is ours for men-- it isn't for women.

It's just like the stay-at-home-mom thing from a few weeks ago. There is nothing wrong with choosing to do this as a 'career'-- however it becomes problematic when it becomes the only choice.

That's not what I have observed.

Where I currently work my boss is a woman, her boss is a woman, and her boss is also a woman. None of them wear makeup, skirts, or really do anything that I can think of that prioritizes their beauty. I mean they look respectable and clean like anyone else but they don't do anything that would fit your description of society. The women that do wear makeup tend to be older, say around fifty(not all but most are older). My wife is a GM and doesn't get all done up to go to work sometimes she wears makeup but most of the time she doesn't. Most of my female friends don't wear makeup to work, neither do my sisters. My child's pediatrician is a woman and she doesn't wear makeup. She wears jeans and a lab coat. The woman that owns the gas station down the road doesn't wear makeup. She wears jeans and a polo.

Is it possible that this was an issue 20 years ago and remains an issue on college campuses but really isn't a endemic problem in today's workplace?

It seems to me that you are judging society based on high school/college experience and outdated social science curriculum.

 

[Joe Bagadonuts]

No, what I'm getting that is that women never have the ****ing choice. Hate it or love it, they are going to need to prioritize being beautiful if they are to win the respect of our sexist society. There is absolutely nothing wrong with priding yourself on whatever the social-construct of beauty happens to be. The problem is that this is unfairly deified for women, and it leads to the slew of problems that our sisters face today. The choice is ours for men-- it isn't for women.

It's just like the stay-at-home-mom thing from a few weeks ago. There is nothing wrong with choosing to do this as a 'career'-- however it becomes problematic when it becomes the only choice.

This sounds pretty bad. I would be very surprised if the women in my life feel that it accurately describes their situation, though.

 

[Deleted member 848]

That's not what I have observed.

Where I currently work my boss is a woman, her boss is a woman, and her boss is also a woman. None of them wear makeup, skirts, or really do anything that I can think of that prioritizes their beauty. I mean they look respectable and clean like anyone else but they don't do anything that would fit your description of society. The women that do wear makeup tend to be older, say around fifty(not all but most are older). My wife is a GM and doesn't get all done up to go to work sometimes she wears makeup but most of the time she doesn't. Most of my female friends don't wear makeup to work, neither do my sisters. My child's pediatrician is a woman and she doesn't wear makeup. She wears jeans and a lab coat. The woman that owns the gas station down the road doesn't wear makeup. She wears jeans and a polo.

Is it possible that this was an issue 20 years ago and remains an issue on college campuses but really isn't a endemic problem in today's workplace?

1) lol

2) Let me just get this straight-- when you say 'that's not what I've observed', and 'it is possible that this was an issue 20 years ago'-- what are you precisely referring to?

Are you referring to the notion of the persistence of the societal prioritization of socially-constructed beauty standards as something that simply does not exist anymore? Poof, it's gone-- and your anecdotal work experience is proof of it?

It seems to me that you are judging society based on high school/college experience and outdated social science curriculum.

d'awww. Says the guy who's probably never read a single published piece of literature from any North American studying Womens and Gender Studies

PS: I've already finished one college degree, i've worked 7 jobs since age 14 in 3 different countries.

 

[fishonjazz]

That's not what I have observed.

Where I currently work my boss is a woman, her boss is a woman, and her boss is also a woman. None of them wear makeup, skirts, or really do anything that I can think of that prioritizes their beauty. I mean they look respectable and clean like anyone else but they don't do anything that would fit your description of society. The women that do wear makeup tend to be older, say around fifty(not all but most are older). My wife is a GM and doesn't get all done up to go to work sometimes she wears makeup but most of the time she doesn't. Most of my female friends don't wear makeup to work, neither do my sisters. My child's pediatrician is a woman and she doesn't wear makeup. She wears jeans and a lab coat. The woman that owns the gas station down the road doesn't wear makeup. She wears jeans and a polo.

Is it possible that this was an issue 20 years ago and remains an issue on college campuses but really isn't a endemic problem in today's workplace?

It seems to me that you are judging society based on high school/college experience and outdated social science curriculum.

Ya it seems like women get lumped into a category often. As if there is no variety.
I think women are very versatile and different from each other and don't just fall into one or two stereotypes.

That's part of what I have been saying in this thread.
It almost seems that women are expected to be devastated, traumatized, scarred for life, and to lose trust in men and fear men if their bodies get seen naked on the internet.

I think some women would be devastated and others wouldn't. Neither would be right or wrong for it.

I kind of get the feeling that dalamon thinks every woman would be devastated.

 

[Deleted member 848]

This sounds pretty bad. I would be very surprised if the women in my life feel that it accurately describes their situation, though.

a) it's because you're not listening, and b) it's because you're not opening your eyes.

Every single robust critique brought forth by feminism brings this up in some shape or form.

But, of course, feminism is a bad word, and ppl immediately shut their ears after hearing it.

 

[Deleted member 848]

Ya it seems like women get lumped into a category often. As if there is no variety.
I think women are very versatile and different from each other and don't just fall into one or two stereotypes.

That's part of what I have been saying in this thread.
It almost seems that women are expected to be devastated, traumatized, scarred for life, and to lose trust in men and fear men if their bodies get seen naked on the internet.

I think some women would be devastated and others wouldn't. Neither would be right or wrong for it.

I kind of get the feeling that dalamon thinks every woman would be devastated.

I think every woman has a right to be devestated. And THAT is the point. It''s irrelevant how they deal with it-- they have every ****ing right to sue the **** out of the dude and the hotel, and send a message to every ****ing pig who dares to consider doing this.

 

[Deleted member 848]

This sounds pretty bad. I would be very surprised if the women in my life feel that it accurately describes their situation, though.

this is such a honest, but depressing, post.

I can't tell you how badly you need to start listening to the **** our respected feminists are fighting for.

 

[fishonjazz]

I think every woman has a right to be devestated. And THAT is the point. It''s irrelevant how they deal with it-- they have every ****ing right to sue the **** out of the dude and the hotel, and send a message to every ****ing pig who dares to consider doing this.

I think we all agree about that. We have all said that it is fine and warranted to feel devastated.

I have yet to see you show any kind of support to the idea that a woman doesn't get devastated by something like this though.

 

[fishonjazz]

a) it's because you're not listening, and b) it's because you're not opening your eyes.

Every single robust critique brought forth by feminism brings this up in some shape or form.

But, of course, feminism is a bad word, and ppl immediately shut their ears after hearing it.

Is there a chance that some women don't fall prey to the conditions and constrictions placed on them by society as it relates to beauty.

Some women are not fragile flowers that always try to look good in the hopes of gaining acceptance from society.

Not sure if that's what you have implied or not but it comes off that way.

 

[fishonjazz]

It's seems that dalamon is saying that women are deeply emotional creatures that get shaken and devastated when their nude bodies get put online and get upset when men tell them they are prettier when they smile because society treats them as objects and is sexist.

I can see that opinion. Seems like a pretty broad (pardon the sexist term) brush to paint with to me though.

I also see other types of women in my day to day life.

 

[JazzGal]

The problem with thinking one knows what an appropriate response should be for anyone in a given situation is that there is no way to know all the factors that play into their experience. For example, Erin may be more sensitive to this than some other women might be because of her job. I'm sure that working around a bunch of professional athletes is difficult as many are likely to treat her as an object and not take her seriously in her profession. She is on TV, which ensures that people are going to be making comments about her appearance all the time. She has had to fight hard to rise in a male-dominated profession, and I would imagine she has encountered all kinds of harassment along the way. It all ties into what this experience has been for her.

None of us gets through life unscathed, unfortunately.

I'm glad we had this little chat.

 

[Joe Bagadonuts]

a) it's because you're not listening, and b) it's because you're not opening your eyes.

Every single robust critique brought forth by feminism brings this up in some shape or form.

But, of course, feminism is a bad word, and ppl immediately shut their ears after hearing it.

I think a more accurate thing to say is that I'm listening to different women than you are, and they apparently have a radically different view of the world. I realize that there's a lot of anger in the feminist crowd. I don't believe feminists are a good representation of all women.

 

[sirkickyass]

Several posts in this thread serve as an excellent reminder that when you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression.

 

[fishonjazz]

The problem with thinking one knows what an appropriate response should be for anyone in a given situation is that there is no way to know all the factors that play into their experience. For example, Erin may be more sensitive to this than some other women might be because of her job. I'm sure that working around a bunch of professional athletes is difficult as many are likely to treat her as an object and not take her seriously in her profession. She is on TV, which ensures that people are going to be making comments about her appearance all the time. She has had to fight hard to rise in a male-dominated profession, and I would imagine she has encountered all kinds of harassment along the way. It all ties into what this experience has been for her.

None of us gets through life unscathed, unfortunately.

I'm glad we had this little chat.

I agree with all this

 

[Joe Bagadonuts]

Several posts in this thread serve as an excellent reminder that when you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression.

What posts are you referring to?

 

[fishonjazz]

What posts are you referring to?

Yours. Mine. Maybe hey heys. Im guessing.

 

[fishonjazz]

Growing up society always taught me to treat women with way more respect than i treat men. I always opened car doors for them, always bought them flowers, always treated them softly and kindly, gave tons of compliments, do favors for them, would never hit them.

I treat my guy friends good too but i would never talk to a woman the way i talk to my guy friends and never buy them stuff. I do compliment them sometimes but not nearly as often as I compliment women.


I can only speak for myself but i treat women way better than i treat men. Is that societies fault too?
Is it bad that i treat women better than men cause that means i treat them different? How do the feminists feel about this issue i wonder.

 

[Joe Bagadonuts]

Yours. Mine. Maybe hey heys. Im guessing.

I guess this is what you have to assume, but I can't think of a single comment where anyone in that group suggested they were oppressed.