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Gay marriage in Utah put on hold

PearlWatson said:
It doesn't look good for his cowardice quotient if you jump in to his defense, especially when you are wrong. He responded when I blew down dalamon's strawman and made a statement that he refused to stand behind in any way.
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I named a few objective measures that show no sign of a downward spiral.
 
One Brow said:
I disagree. The family dynamics that precede the romantic involvement greatly increase the chance of coercion. However, I accept that you don't see this.
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Is there a study that supports this or is it your opinion?

FWIW I disagree with this opinion, but could be swayed by facts.
 
LogGrad98 said:
Is there a study that supports this or is it your opinion?

FWIW I disagree with this opinion, but could be swayed by facts.
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I don't think there are enough sibling marriages that a formal study could be done meaningfully. It is my opinion, based on, among other things, that such relationships would often have started when the two individuals were teenagers, with one of them having more household authority. Even years later, these things carry over.
 
Beantown said:
Its not about the Bible. Its about the creation of life. Marriage has always been about creating families. Only heterosexual relations can create offspring.


That being said I am not against gay marriage. Heterosexual and homosexuals should be seen as socially equal but they are obviously not biologically equal.
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You don't have to be married to procreate. Marriage has changed over time and it had more to do with legal issues. Marriage became this "divine" thing when religion got ahold of it. Not every heterosexual person can or chooses to have children but they still can marry.
 
One Brow said:
I don't think there are enough sibling marriages that a formal study could be done meaningfully. It is my opinion, based on, among other things, that such relationships would often have started when the two individuals were teenagers, with one of them having more household authority. Even years later, these things carry over.
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It might. Imo it isn't enough of a concern to be a substantial reason to legislate against the marriage. You have unequal power structures in "normal" marriages too, and sometimes they work it out and sometimes they don't. Now I could see this being a reason for denying other incestuous marriages (e.g. parent-child, uncle-niece, etc.) but I think the risk among siblings would be pretty small and not a deciding factor.



edit: Is there a generic term for aunts and uncles or nieces or nephews the way there is the word "child" or "parent" or "sibling"? Just curious.
 
One Brow said:
I named a few objective measures that show no sign of a downward spiral.
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I re-throught my response to this because it plays into things.

It wasn't my claim that morality would plummit because of homosexual "marriage." I don't know who prompted dalamon's strawman assertion but he can't back it up because there will never be agreement on what morality is, let alone what factors played into it's change, or what the timeline parameters would even be for such effects.
 
PearlWatson said:
I don't know who prompted dalamon's strawman assertion but he can't back it up because there will never be agreement on what morality is, let alone what factors played into it's change, or what the timeline parameters would even be for such effects.
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I agree with this. There will never be a good reason to think homosexual marriage has had any significant effect on society.
 
One Brow said:
I agree with this. There will never be a good reason to think homosexual marriage has had any significant effect on society.
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I think direct "cause and effect" for changes (whether positive, negative or neutral) in our society is pretty much speculative and subject to interpretation however, unless there is a physical basis (such as improved hygiene on lifespan and things like that)
 
One Brow said:
I agree with this. There will never be a good reason to think homosexual marriage has had any significant effect on society.
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I just do not get this.

It obviously has an effect on society, imo. It changes that society, and how that society views things, simply by being added to the mix. This is true of any change to a society.
 
Stoked said:
I just do not get this.

It obviously has an effect on society, imo. It changes that society, and how that society views things, simply by being added to the mix. This is true of any change to a society.
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Depends on your point of view I guess. From OB's point of view it won't be a change because in his mind it is already a part of society, just not "official" yet. For many others it will be a significant change the way you outline, but often the vocal minority gives no thought at all to the impact on the majority as long as they get their way. Not being snide or rude, it is just the truth. In fact one of my favorite band's name is a play on that concept. KMFDM.
 
LogGrad98 said:
Depends on your point of view I guess. From OB's point of view it won't be a change because in his mind it is already a part of society, just not "official" yet. For many others it will be a significant change the way you outline, but often the vocal minority gives no thought at all to the impact on the majority as long as they get their way. Not being snide or rude, it is just the truth. In fact one of my favorite band's name is a play on that concept. KMFDM.
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Even changing the legality of it changes the society.

This is beyond argument to me. Its like arguing the sun doesn't provide warmth.

Now one could argue the level of change and if that change is good or bad. I'd say a moderate change and a good one.
 
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