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Goodbye, Green Party

One Brow

One Brow

Well-Known Member
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Maybe I was less than ideally informed, but it seems that this year Jill Stein is bringing the anti-science hot and heavy. I can't vote Green anymore.
 
What do you mean when you say anti-science?
 
Stein is a medical doctor and favors vaccinations. Still, she does pander to the anti-vax crowd. I don’t think anyone that’s solid Green would leave over the way Stein has handled this one issue though. Must be more to it.
 
One Brow said:
Maybe I was less than ideally informed, but it seems that this year Jill Stein is bringing the anti-science hot and heavy. I can't vote Green anymore.
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It's pretty typical of fanatics to fractionate like this.

j/k, good to see you back around.
 
dalamon said:
It's a smear campaign, there's already been articles written on how she isn't anti-vaxx (FWIW Trump said he is)
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Those are very broad labels, being pro-vax or anti-vax. Some vaccinations have been proven to cause autism while others have improved our life expectancy. It's not a black or white issue.
 
Jamezz said:
Those are very broad labels, being pro-vax or anti-vax. Some vaccinations have been proven to cause autism while others have improved our life expectancy. It's not a black or white issue.
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No. No link between vaccines and autism has been shown, let alone "proven".
 
dalamon said:
It's a smear campaign, there's already been articles written on how she isn't anti-vaxx (FWIW Trump said he is)
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A smear campaign? They're worried about those few thousand votes she'll get?

I don't care whether she is or isn't an anti-vaxxer. I just find the conspiratorial tone funny.
 
Siro said:
A smear campaign? They're worried about those few thousand votes she'll get?

I don't care whether she is or isn't an anti-vaxxer. I just find the conspiratorial tone funny.
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i think we've now had two candidates in this election grow from "jokes" and ~3% in the polls to contending for presidency. The conspiratorial tone wasn't intended but you're kidding yourself if the DNC isn't trying to sway people away from Jill Stein.
 
Siro said:
No. No link between vaccines and autism has been shown, let alone "proven".
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Oh, the links. Here are a few sir:


https://www.mdpi.com/1099-4300/14/11/2227/pdf

https://mercury-freedrugs.org/docs/...ismIndianJMedResOct2008_v128_383-411_1004.pdf

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/16512356/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/19043939/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/19043938/

https://mercury-freedrugs.org/docs/100430_PubGeiersVaccinePreserStudy.pdf

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B-jYsdHZuRhCVXZUbFFlUzdfNGM/edit?pli=1

https://www.collective-evolution.co...termines-vaccines-can-cause-irreparable-harm/

https://www.medicalveritas.com/vaccinemyth.pdf

https://www.whale.to/a/pdf/geier2.pdf

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/17454560/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/18445737/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/21623535/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23645137

https://www.jpands.org/vol9no2/bradstreet.pdf

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs....1080/02772248.2012.724574?journalCode=gtec20

https://www.educate4theinjured.org/...ata/c4nx/96DBBE9B-4D0F-400B-9065-3D1CF65FCDCF

https://www.ageofautism.com/2008/05/sick-monkeys-st.html#more

https://www.alternativementalhealth.com/articles/autism.htm

https://mobile.dudamobile.com/site/...-Research-Exposed-Flawed-Falsified.shtml#2748

https://www.whale.to/a/table_a.htm
 
Jamezz said:
Oh, the links. Here are a few sir:


https://www.mdpi.com/1099-4300/14/11/2227/pdf

https://mercury-freedrugs.org/docs/...ismIndianJMedResOct2008_v128_383-411_1004.pdf

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/16512356/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/19043939/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/19043938/

https://mercury-freedrugs.org/docs/100430_PubGeiersVaccinePreserStudy.pdf

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B-jYsdHZuRhCVXZUbFFlUzdfNGM/edit?pli=1

https://www.collective-evolution.co...termines-vaccines-can-cause-irreparable-harm/

https://www.medicalveritas.com/vaccinemyth.pdf

https://www.whale.to/a/pdf/geier2.pdf

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/17454560/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/18445737/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/21623535/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23645137

https://www.jpands.org/vol9no2/bradstreet.pdf

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs....1080/02772248.2012.724574?journalCode=gtec20

https://www.educate4theinjured.org/...ata/c4nx/96DBBE9B-4D0F-400B-9065-3D1CF65FCDCF

https://www.ageofautism.com/2008/05/sick-monkeys-st.html#more

https://www.alternativementalhealth.com/articles/autism.htm

https://mobile.dudamobile.com/site/...-Research-Exposed-Flawed-Falsified.shtml#2748

https://www.whale.to/a/table_a.htm
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Do you really want to me to refute a copy/paste list of links that you dumped on me without reading? Outrageous. Specially that this isn't my area of expertise (but I'm sure it's yours given your apparently extensive research :rolleyes: )

But here's a refutation of the first study:

https://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2012/11/20/dumpster-diving-in-the-vaers-database-again/

Here's an excerpt:

When it comes to concepts about why Seneff et al think vaccines cause autism, this paper is all over the place. It’s the “impaired detoxification”! It’s the mercury, even though the hypothesis that mercury in the thimerosal in vaccines causes autism is a hypothesis that is about as thoroughly discredited as a hypothesis can be. Seneff et al also completely buy into the antivaccine pivot that’s occurred since the mercury hypothesis has been falsified, namely the idea that it’s really the aluminum adjuvant that causes autism, repeating many of the same scientifically bankrupt and fallacious arguments that Tomljenovic and Shaw did in their misbegotten review articles. They go on ad nauseam about aluminum being toxic to neurons (at concentrations far higher than could be produced in vivo by vaccines), about aluminum being toxic in people with renal failure (never mind that the study was about parenteral aluminum in total parenteral nutrition solutions) and cite the infamous “monkey business” paper as evidence that thimerosal-containing hepatitis B vaccine causes autism.

Of course, as anyone who’s been following the antivaccine movement knows, the MMR vaccine has never contained either aluminum or thimerosal, but that doesn’t stop Seneff et al from jumping from blaming “heavy metals” like mercury and aluminum for the “autism epidemic” to blaming the MMR vaccine. They even go so far as to repeat oft-debunked attacks on the Danish study that failed to find a link between MMR and autism. Never mind that the evidence base that shows that the MMR vaccine is not correlated with autism consists of far more than one study. There are multiple other well-designed large epidemiological studies that have failed to find a link between the MMR vaccine and autism. If the Danish study were wiped off the face of the earth or were never done, there’d still be more than enough evidence exonerating the MMR. Similarly, Seneff et al claim that vaccines are associated with a higher rate of sudden infant death syndrome. They aren’t. They even cite an absolutely abysmal Goldman and Miller paper that claimed to find that vaccines were associated with increased infant mortality. I might have to take that paper on, but if it’s anything like a Goldman and Miller paper that I did take on that argued the same thing using different methods, there’s little doubt that it doesn’t show what Goldman and Miller think it shows.
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A quick Google search shows that most of the other links you've posted have been responded to.

Also, I would like for you to go thru this link that you provided:

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B-jYsdHZuRhCVXZUbFFlUzdfNGM/edit?pli=1

And tell how it's related to the subject. It's practically a book, and not a paper. And I'd like for you to go through it, and tell me what you think. But I know you won't. Also, I'd like to point out that some of the links you gave are not scientific papers at all, but anti-vaxxer wackos.

Here's a list of papers that show the ones you linked are unreliable:

https://justthevax.blogspot.com/2014/03/75-studies-that-show-no-link-between.html

Keep in mind this is a fraction of the total number of papers that show vaccines are safe. What matters is that the scientific community has not found any convincing evidence that a link between vaccines and autism exists. Anyone can cherry pick papers to show what they want them to show, specially in the health sciences. But the evidence, as the medical community at large understands it, does not point to a connection between the two. Additionally, no known mechanisms exists. Most of those papers rely on unscientific jargon like "heavy metal detoxification" and such.
 
Siro said:
Do you really want to me to refute a copy/paste list of links that you dumped on me without reading? Outrageous. Specially that this isn't my area of expertise (but I'm sure it's yours given your apparently extensive research :rolleyes: )

But here's a refutation of the first study:

https://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2012/11/20/dumpster-diving-in-the-vaers-database-again/

Here's an excerpt:



A quick Google search shows that most of the other links you've posted have been responded to.

Also, I would like for you to go thru this link that you provided:

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B-jYsdHZuRhCVXZUbFFlUzdfNGM/edit?pli=1

And tell how it's related to the subject. It's practically a book, and not a paper. And I'd like for you to go through it, and tell me what you think. But I know you won't. Also, I'd like to point out that some of the links you gave are not scientific papers at all, but anti-vaxxer wackos.

Here's a list of papers that show the ones you linked are unreliable:

https://justthevax.blogspot.com/2014/03/75-studies-that-show-no-link-between.html

Keep in mind this is a fraction of the total number of papers that show vaccines are safe. What matters is that the scientific community has not found any convincing evidence that a link between vaccines and autism exists. Anyone can cherry pick papers to show what they want them to show, specially in the health sciences. But the evidence, as the medical community at large understands it, does not point to a connection between the two. Additionally, no known mechanisms exists. Most of those papers rely on unscientific jargon like "heavy metal detoxification" and such.
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The scientific community sounds like a very broad concept to me. What exactly determines that a hypothesis is shared by the "scientific community" in general? Also, how do you assume that I haven't read all the links that I gave you? Actually I didn't, I've gone through a few because I don't have the time to read them all entirely, I just find it interesting that you would make that assumption. I was just throwing it out there as evidence of some people thinking that some vaccines are linked to autism. Which "experts" and scientists are right and which are wrong?

The first link you sent me was written by Dr. David Gorski, AKA "Orac". Here's a blog that I found about this individual:

https://unmaskingorac.blogspot.com/

"Gorski routinely behaves like a megalomaniac and has taken the vaccination debate down into the ‘cyber gutter’ with his vile and vindictive bully posts to anyone who dares to question him, typically attacking them with paragraph after paragraph of smokescreens, name-calling, and ‘e-bloviating.’ It’s a sure fire bet that whenever Gorski uses pejoratives like ‘quack’ and ‘science denier,’ he has zero interest in any logical or reasonable discussion," says Ty Bollinger, creator of the globally popular Truth About Cancer docu-series.

David Gorski urges his fellow science trolls to engage in "emotional warfare" by impersonating other people (using "sock puppet" trolling tactics) to spread fictional, highly charged accounts of horrible things that happen to parents who don't obediently surrender their children to endless vaccination demands. Gorski's deranged attacks also put lives at risk. He "built his platform of distraction and misinformation against the importance of the critical subjects of systemic detoxification and heavy metal toxicity for almost 12 years," Rashid A. Buttar told Natural News. "Initially during his attacks on me, Dr. Gorski posed as a single mother of an autistic child. But he was exposed as a card carrying member of an organization called Quackbusters by JB Handley, a self proclaimed group protecting the sanctity of medicine."
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Your links against mine. Feel free to look for a link that exposes https://unmaskingorac.blogspot.com/

I say we just settle this on August 13 with a game of poker ;)
 
Boris said:
There is a tight correlation between rising vaccine rates an autism. Try to explain that away.
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There is also a tight correlation between the rising amount of sports teams and cancer.

In the 1930's there were a lot less cancer diagnosis and also a lot less professional sports teams.

Explain that!
 
Jamezz said:
The scientific community sounds like a very broad concept to me. What exactly determines that a hypothesis is shared by the "scientific community" in general? Also, how do you assume that I haven't read all the links that I gave you? Actually I didn't, I've gone through a few because I don't have the time to read them all entirely, I just find it interesting that you would make that assumption. I was just throwing it out there as evidence of some people thinking that some vaccines are linked to autism. Which "experts" and scientists are right and which are wrong?

The first link you sent me was written by Dr. David Gorski, AKA "Orac". Here's a blog that I found about this individual:

https://unmaskingorac.blogspot.com/




Your links against mine. Feel free to look for a link that exposes https://unmaskingorac.blogspot.com/

I say we just settle this on August 13 with a game of poker ;)
Click to expand...

I assumed you haven't read the links because of course you haven't. Who are we kidding here? You don't have the knowledge to evaluate such articles, since you're not an immunologist, or a health scientist of any kind. You came up with the conclusion that a link exists beforehand, then you Googled a few links to dump on me.

Also, I couldn't care less about the character of David Gorski, or his name calling. The link shows the study you provided is fundamentally wrong. It makes claims that are factually incorrect, like the claim of the presence of aluminum in MMR (false). That's the issue with these papers. Not that some scientists dicks are bigger than others, but that scientists point out a plethora of factual and theoretical problems with those papers.

Like I said. I'm not a health scientist. I can't dedicate my life to scouring the literature in order to make a fully-informed opinion on the subject. What I can do, is judge the reliability of studies. So I look at what the community has to say about it. And the community says that the few studies that show a link between vaccines are autism are factually and theoretically lacking. To top it off, hundreds, maybe thousands, of papers that try to duplicate the findings in a more scientifically rigorous way fail to do so.

The scientific understanding of autism has expanded greatly in the past few decades, and so have the number of people being diagnosed. Given this uptrend, a million cases for correlation can be made. Maybe it's transistors are causing autism. Anyone can make such a ridiculous hypothesis, then make a graph that show a correlation between the two, along with made-up a mechanism nobody has heard of. Case in point is the satirical, and hilarious, joke that shows that climate change is caused by lack of pirates.

glob-pirates2.png


You're coming to the conclusion you like, then you try to find studies that kind of support the conclusion. You are not looking at the whole picture to try to come up with the strongest possible conclusion, which is that no link between autism and vaccines have been convincingly demonstrated, let alone "proven". And one further note, I use the word "proven" in quotes because science does not try to prove things. It only confirms them. A hypothesis is made, in this case the connection between vaccinations and autism, and then experiments either confirm or reject the hypothesis. Nothing is ever proven.
 
Jamezz said:
I say we just settle this on August 13 with a game of poker ;)
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No no. We should discuss globalization during the poker game. I haven't had the chance to get back to you on that, and I fee that it's the kind of conversation that is better in person. I want not only to discuss the economic success of globalization, but its philosophical superiority to isolationism.
 
Siro said:
No no. We should discuss globalization during the poker game. I haven't had the chance to get back to you on that, and I fee that it's the kind of conversation that is better in person. I want not only to discuss the economic success of globalization, but its philosophical superiority to isolationism.
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That's right down my aisle, should be fun.

I'm curious to know about your superior thoughts in the matter.
 
fishonjazz said:
There is also a tight correlation between the rising amount of sports teams and cancer.

In the 1930's there were a lot less cancer diagnosis and also a lot less professional sports teams.

Explain that!
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Wrong. In the past there were many more professional sports teams. It waxed an waned. You know, like ABA NBA AFL NFL Harlem Globetrotters.
 
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