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Gun control a comparison US vs Russia

At that point you are only arguing the degree of the accelerant. What amount is to much and what amount is allowed? Also framing guns as an accelerant shows that they are not the root cause of the murders, only facilitate it. Would that not lead to trying to correct the cause instead of addressing the symptoms?

Who has framed this otherwise? Who has said we don't need to tackle the social underpinnings? And why should we not be concerned with matters that exacerbate an immensely tragic and absurd issue?

For my part, I think legislating meaningful gun control (hand gun ban) is sensible. Real results would take a generation or two (for a myriad of reasons) so we'd have to be patient (which might be the biggest impediment to anything like that working). But yes, I certainly prefer my lunatics wielding knives than semi-automatic hand guns.

I think the idea that disarming the common man of hand guns is the government protecting itself from revolution is about the dumbest thing I've ever heard. For whatever that is worth.
 
Who has framed this otherwise? Who has said we don't need to tackle the social underpinnings? And why should we not be concerned with matters that exacerbate an immensely tragic and absurd issue?

For my part, I think legislating meaningful gun control (hand gun ban) is sensible. Real results would take a generation or two (for a myriad of reasons) so we'd have to be patient (which might be the biggest impediment to anything like that working). But yes, I certainly prefer my lunatics wielding knives than semi-automatic hand guns.

I think the idea that disarming the common man of hand guns is the government protecting itself from revolution is about the dumbest thing I've ever heard. For whatever that is worth.

Fair enough.

As for how it is framed. There are certainly those out there that are framing it as s guns issue and not indicative of something larger.

I absolutely disagree with a hand gun ban being sensible. It is not sensible. Preventing those with mental end emotional disabilities from owning a hand gun is sensible. But an out right ban? That will never even get lift off.
 
Fair enough.

As for how it is framed. There are certainly those out there that are framing it as s guns issue and not indicative of something larger.

I absolutely disagree with a hand gun ban being sensible. It is not sensible. Preventing those with mental end emotional disabilities from owning a hand gun is sensible. But an out right ban? That will never even get lift off.

iawtp

When you start getting into this territory it is the same as prohibition. The practicality makes it unworkable, and it is a slippery slope.
 
Who has framed this otherwise? Who has said we don't need to tackle the social underpinnings? And why should we not be concerned with matters that exacerbate an immensely tragic and absurd issue?

For my part, I think legislating meaningful gun control (hand gun ban) is sensible. Real results would take a generation or two (for a myriad of reasons) so we'd have to be patient (which might be the biggest impediment to anything like that working). But yes, I certainly prefer my lunatics wielding knives than semi-automatic hand guns.

I think the idea that disarming the common man of hand guns is the government protecting itself from revolution is about the dumbest thing I've ever heard. For whatever that is worth.

No thanks.

I'm more worried about the violence stemming from unregulated metalcore tbh. Why should we allow that kind of music to influence our children to violence?
 
iawtp

When you start getting into this territory it is the same as prohibition. The practicality makes it unworkable, and it is a slippery slope.

Again, gun rights should stand on its own merits. We don't need to defend this with side these trivial tangents, although I do get a huge kick every time the control issues crowd makes a push and further engrains guns into our culture and thus making taking them away even further from reality. Nothing better than seeing things blow up in the face of people acting stupidly.
 
I've known a few (not many, but a few) people who feel a handgun ban would be prudent, yet have never heard a reasonable proposal of how to implement such a measure. All sorts of ideas regarding retail gun sales, but nothing that addresses the 300 MILLION guns already in circulation. Many (most) of those have no reliable paper trail to prove ownership. So, essentially, you would have to ask that all handgun owners surrender their weapons voluntarily. The thought of this amuses me greatly. Not gonna happen. The cost and logistics of forcibly taking them would would be beyond prohibitive.
 
I think making it easier rather than harder to murder another person has an effect you might expect. Societal issues are far more the culprit in homicide rates, but that doesn't mean that the practically universal ability to own machinery that kills by trigger isn't an accelerant.
https://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/?Article_ID=17847
In 2002 -- five years after enacting its gun ban -- the Australian Bureau of Criminology acknowledged there is no correlation between gun control and the use of firearms in violent crime. In fact, the percent of murders committed with a firearm was the highest it had ever been in 2006 (16.3 percent)...

In 2006, assault rose 49.2 percent and robbery 6.2 percent.
Sexual assault -- Australia's equivalent term for rape -- increased 29.9 percent.
Overall, Australia's violent crime rate rose 42.2 percent.
yes, I certainly prefer my lunatics wielding knives than semi-automatic hand guns.
Some might use knives most will build bombs.
I think the idea that disarming the common man of hand guns is the government protecting itself from revolution is about the dumbest thing I've ever heard. For whatever that is worth.
I find it highly unlikely that the day armed revolution becomes necessary in the US happens anytime soon. I also find it highly unlikely that day will never come. This country has always operated with a sense of duty to protect the liberty of future generations. If you listen to the rulings of judges they are always mindful of setting any precedent that would hinder the liberty of future generations in any way. I think that disarming the common citizen while it may not be dangerous today opens the door for future abuses of power. If you take a look at the policy of any totalitarian government in the world you will see that none of them allow there citizens(subjects) to be armed.
 
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No thanks.

I'm more worried about the violence stemming from unregulated metalcore tbh. Why should we allow that kind of music to influence our children to violence?

You talk any more **** on Metal and I will rip your ****ing heart out and **** in the hole. waaaaaaaaahahowww
 
FWIW I don't crusade because crusaders are generally insufferable, and I am particularly lazy about such things when they are hopeless anyway.

So yeah, woooo guns. And the Jazz.
 
I've known a few (not many, but a few) people who feel a handgun ban would be prudent, yet have never heard a reasonable proposal of how to implement such a measure. All sorts of ideas regarding retail gun sales, but nothing that addresses the 300 MILLION guns already in circulation. Many (most) of those have no reliable paper trail to prove ownership. So, essentially, you would have to ask that all handgun owners surrender their weapons voluntarily. The thought of this amuses me greatly. Not gonna happen. The cost and logistics of forcibly taking them would would be beyond prohibitive.

This. There is no way a fun ban works. If you tried to truly have one it would involve confiscating the guns already owned. There is no way that the Beaver County sheriffs go door to door in Beaver and confiscate all the guns. They won't do it to their neighbors and family. So that means an outside force. Now you have some ATF agent or national guardsman on your door demanding your guns? The risk of armed confrontation just increased 1,000%.
 
This. There is no way a fun ban works. If you tried to truly have one it would involve confiscating the guns already owned. There is no way that the Beaver County sheriffs go door to door in Beaver and confiscate all the guns. They won't do it to their neighbors and family. So that means an outside force. Now you have some ATF agent or national guardsman on your door demanding your guns? The risk of armed confrontation just increased 1,000%.

They try to ban fun and I will get all up in their ****. Mother****ers.
 
This. There is no way a fun ban works. If you tried to truly have one it would involve confiscating the guns already owned. There is no way that the Beaver County sheriffs go door to door in Beaver and confiscate all the guns. They won't do it to their neighbors and family. So that means an outside force. Now you have some ATF agent or national guardsman on your door demanding your guns? The risk of armed confrontation just increased 1,000%.

Now let's talk about responsible gun ownership xD
 
No what you really want to talk about is someone owning something you do not like. That is pretty much it.

Honestly it's more something that I think a government shouldn't like his citizens to own ;)
I personally enjoy reading every now and then about shooting in the US. Always gives me the giggles. Far away I'm also not affected since I don't have many relatives over there. And those I have, I really don't know all that well.
But my emphatic qualities somehow suggested to express my opinion after heyhey dragged Germany and Luxembourg into that convo!
 
Honestly it's more something that I think a government shouldn't like his citizens to own ;)
I personally enjoy reading every now and then about shooting in the US. Always gives me the giggles. Far away I'm also not affected since I don't have many relatives over there. And those I have, I really don't know all that well.
But my emphatic qualities somehow suggested to express my opinion after heyhey dragged Germany and Luxembourg into that convo!

Nice to know you are a classy guy.
 
Oh boy!

Another gun thread! I'm sure we are really going to persuade people to different opinions this time! Especially since so many minds were changed on this board after scores of school children were massacred....

If only we could have another gay marriage thread!
 
I better get in on this instead of thread-s*****ng.

I don't know if this has been said or not, but lets put a different spin on this. Lets not look at it as "We're controlling what you do", or "They're curtailing the 2nd amendment" trains of thought.

Drop those, and then look at this section here:

Applicants face strict background checks, including criminal history, a full psychological evaluation and a medical exam. They must pass a test on firearm laws and safety.

The first part is kind of suspect. But I don't think anyone can completely be all that upset with keeping firearms out of the hands of those mentally unfit to care for them. I'll take it a step further and say that I'd be glad to be the anxiety/ptsd poster boy that believes I probably should not own a gun. There are points where my anxiety kicks in and gives me some unbearable negativity with the world as a whole; a bad combination considering that sometimes I can be an arrogant prick that thinks he knows all the answers. To date, I've been able to maintain. But I can see how there are much further extremes in mental instability than what I deal with that I likely wouldn't be able to handle in a well thought out manner. So I'd say Yes, I believe a psych eval for anyone that owns a gun has great value.

Mind you, I do own one. And am yet to use it for a purpose other than understanding how it works.

Each weapon is then registered by the police during a home visit. Police take bullet patterns, test bullets and cartridges so bullets can be matched if the gun is used in a crime. A license lasts five years, after which applicants must go through the whole process again

A home visit almost feels like an invasion of Privacy. I'm not sure I can get in line with that, but if you put that under the first section of psych eval it's tolerable.

Now the bullet patterns and such make perfect sense. To a degree, it also blows the argument of "Criminals don't obey laws" out of the water if you follow it through just a little further. Criminals don't obey laws.. great. But Criminals also find every crack, every nook, every possible way to get through the screen we call "Law" they can. "Criminal Lawyer" indeed! This evidence would help build better, stronger cases against the worst criminals, those that are actually using the guns for violent crimes. That tied in with tougher gun laws gets those criminals off the streets for longer periods of time.

So in a way, it does/can make sense.

At the same time, following it through to the very end, they just end up in Prison. Prison is still violent, and perpetuates the lifestyle that said criminal was living in. So in order for this really to work, we'd have to overhaul the way we look at Criminal Rehabilitation, which is much more costly. OR, those violent crimes criminals that manage to make repeat offenses we kill. I'm pretty pro-death penalty anyway.

We kind of end up in a d***ed if we do d***ed if we don't situation.

So what is the answer here? I have no idea. But I believe coming closer to Russian gun control laws has more value than keeping the standard we have now.
 
Another gun thread! I'm sure we are really going to persuade people to different opinions this time! Especially since so many minds were changed on this board after scores of school children were massacred...

^Absolutely missing the point of the whole discussion. Nevertheless, I did get a good laugh from you managing to be both condescending and clueless in the confines of a single statement. So, thanks for that...

...Now the bullet patterns and such make perfect sense. To a degree, it also blows the argument of "Criminals don't obey laws" out of the water if you follow it through just a little further. Criminals don't obey laws.. great. But Criminals also find every crack, every nook, every possible way to get through the screen we call "Law" they can. "Criminal Lawyer" indeed! This evidence would help build better, stronger cases against the worst criminals, those that are actually using the guns for violent crimes. That tied in with tougher gun laws gets those criminals off the streets for longer periods of time.

I had trouble figuring out exactly what you're trying to say here, Roach. I mean, I get the basic gist of it, but I don't follow how you got there...

Cataloging ballistics patterns may seem reasonable, on the face of it, but I have two questions about it:

1. How much extra time, money, and manpower is involved, even to keep such records just for all new sales?

2. How would you go about implementing such a program with the guns that are already out there?
 
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