Gun Debate Twist

[lauriandres]

Lots of good questions. Following a somewhat dodge. The very vast majority of 5 year olds are not taught what to with a gun. Mine weren't. But my 11 and 16 year old know.

Let’s see, sincere effort to answer.

Some will get help and some won’t, but that’s already happening. A gun law won’t change that in any measurable way beyond the intensely personal.

Will this put a dent in gun deaths? Yes and no. Will it put a dent in statistical gun deaths? I’m skeptical. On the individual level, I’m sure some people will live and for them it absolutely made a dent. But there is no way of ever knowing that. It’s an unknown. Always will be, in every way. No way of telling who lived because of a law change.

Bi-polar? god these are tough for me. I just don’t know. Best I have is we have to take it case by case. Are they taking meds? Are they in therapy? Are there other mental and/or physical conditions? Prior record? Any training in weapons?

Who defines what rights a person has? Society, as it always has.

For me the line is very blurry and all we can do is our best as a society. And constantly review and adjust as needed. On the macro and micro scale.

Some problems will never have a solid, clean answer.

Stoked, are persons with Down syndrome allowed to own and also open carry guns (in those states were it is in general OK by law to carry gun visibly almost everywhere)?

I know i will be crucified but IMHO persons with mental illness are considered some kind of holy cow, when they do serious bad things. We had a case in Tallinn 2017 when a loony was wandering around with knife in one of the main squares in Tallinn and police shot him to death.
https://www.postimees.ee/4294329/fo...si-vabaduse-valjakul-noaga-vehkinud-mehe-maha second video is about the shooting.
After that half the politicians blamed the the police and others the bad guy. The attitude of those who blamed the police, was something a la "he had a mental illness and therefore above the law and we should respect that". Those who were happy that police did their job, told that they had only couple of seconds to react.
IMHO it is wrong to presume, that police (who in european context are also ordinary people who have their moments of happiness and worries in a civil life) should danger their or other normal people lives.
Also, there is no excuses about receiving treatment - his brother is one of the co-founders of Transferwise so money should not be problem.

About guns in general - i think it would be good to have safety lessons about guns, abandoned munitions etc already in elementary school even if the country in general is not pro-gun. I learned to shoot from the BB gun when i was around 7 years old. During the soviet regime at secondary school we had a so called "basic military-warfare techniques" lesson per week. Teacher told about what to do, when there is gas attack, how mines and grenades work etc. That was only for boys . Of course, compared to Germany, France, Poland and other places which had lots of WW2 fighting - finding a unexploded mine or artillery ammunition when digging a hole is probably pretty rare in USA.

 

[Harambe]

https://www-m.cnn.com/2019/03/31/us/colorado-red-flag-gun-law/index.html?r=https://www.cnn.com/

Colorado is about to pass a “red flag” law leading the way for local law enforcement to confiscate or “seize”, as the article states, based on reports of a gun owner being a threat to themselves or others.

The twist is that more than half the counties in CO have come out against the law. Many declaring themselves “second amendment sanctuary” counties. They also promise to block all state funds from being used to enforce this law.

How do you view counties openly defying state legislatures? One the gun issue or in general. We’ve seen a similar tactic used by some cities, counties and states claiming themselves to be sanctuaries for illegal immigrants. Refusing to cooperate with ICE and the federal gov. Is this a growing trend that will lead to an unbridgeable ideological divide that effectively crippled gov?

On a tangent it points directly to a point I’ve made a couple times on here. Banning and confiscating guns will not really happen. People, towns, cities and even some states (like TX and UT) will openly resist.

Colorado's "extreme risk protection order" bill would allow a family member, a roommate, or law enforcement to petition a judge to take someone's firearms if they are deemed to be a danger to themselves or others.

I'd like to know more about what the Judge's responsibility to education is here. This is not a situation where an ex reports on Monday morning his gf is going to shoot him, so the SWAT team bats down her door at noon and takes her firearms. Laying out a judicial process and expectation is crucial.

So long as the judge has a good picture here, takes it seriously, and holds no conflicts of interest, this seems like it could be really solid. I'm not convinced anyone that respects mental illness could say otherwise.

 

[One Brow]

Stoked, are persons with Down syndrome allowed to own and also open carry guns (in those states were it is in general OK by law to carry gun visibly almost everywhere)?

The capabilities of people with Down's Syndrome varies so widely that it would not be a useful way to decide who can not carry a gun.

 

[moevillini]

OK, I'm going to make what may seem like a strange connection - - between water safety and gun safety. I think most of us can agree that it's important for children to learn to swim (or adults if they didn't learn as a child). But really, as important (or more important) is teaching basic water safety - which is not quite the same thing as teaching swimming. What should be a part of this is teaching a bit of a "healthy fear" of water. Yes, we want children to find swimming fun - but we also need to teach them to realize that it can be dangerous. Most children and young people drown not because they don't know how to swim. It's more because they are either overconfident in their abilities, or they are doing some dumb stuff that involves some additional risky behavior.

I think the gun situation is very similar. Kids should learn a fear of guns and the damage they can inflict before they ever have a chance to handle a gun. Kids should NEVER be allowed to think of a gun as a fun, recreational object. Most would say, of course that's not what I tell my kids at all - - but it's more important how you behave with the gun than what you say. If adults act very casually when handling firearms, that's the message the child is going to get - no matter what may be said about its dangers.

 

[fishonjazz]

Lots of good questions. Following a somewhat dodge. The very vast majority of 5 year olds are not taught what to with a gun. Mine weren't. But my 11 and 16 year old know.

Let’s see, sincere effort to answer.

Some will get help and some won’t, but that’s already happening. A gun law won’t change that in any measurable way beyond the intensely personal.

Will this put a dent in gun deaths? Yes and no. Will it put a dent in statistical gun deaths? I’m skeptical. On the individual level, I’m sure some people will live and for them it absolutely made a dent. But there is no way of ever knowing that. It’s an unknown. Always will be, in every way. No way of telling who lived because of a law change.

Bi-polar? god these are tough for me. I just don’t know. Best I have is we have to take it case by case. Are they taking meds? Are they in therapy? Are there other mental and/or physical conditions? Prior record? Any training in weapons?

Who defines what rights a person has? Society, as it always has.

For me the line is very blurry and all we can do is our best as a society. And constantly review and adjust as needed. On the macro and micro scale.

Some problems will never have a solid, clean answer.

Hell of an answer


Sent from my iPad using JazzFanz mobile app

 

[Gameface]

OK, I'm going to make what may seem like a strange connection - - between water safety and gun safety. I think most of us can agree that it's important for children to learn to swim (or adults if they didn't learn as a child). But really, as important (or more important) is teaching basic water safety - which is not quite the same thing as teaching swimming. What should be a part of this is teaching a bit of a "healthy fear" of water. Yes, we want children to find swimming fun - but we also need to teach them to realize that it can be dangerous. Most children and young people drown not because they don't know how to swim. It's more because they are either overconfident in their abilities, or they are doing some dumb stuff that involves some additional risky behavior.

I think the gun situation is very similar. Kids should learn a fear of guns and the damage they can inflict before they ever have a chance to handle a gun. Kids should NEVER be allowed to think of a gun as a fun, recreational object. Most would say, of course that's not what I tell my kids at all - - but it's more important how you behave with the gun than what you say. If adults act very casually when handling firearms, that's the message the child is going to get - no matter what may be said about its dangers.

I have made a similar argument, that in a nation that has enshrined gun rights into its very core gun safety should be taught in our schools. Very simple gun safety taught about the same time they do "maturation" classes. More comprehensive gun safety around the time they teach driver's ed.

If we are a nation of gun owners we need to be a nation educated in gun safety.

 

[moevillini]

I have made a similar argument, that in a nation that has enshrined gun rights into its very core gun safety should be taught in our schools. Very simple gun safety taught about the same time they do "maturation" classes. More comprehensive gun safety around the time they teach driver's ed.

If we are a nation of gun owners we need to be a nation educated in gun safety.

Most definitely!

But it's not just teaching safety, it's instilling a healthy dose of FEAR of guns - - or perhaps I should say a healthy dose of reality as to their dangers. We've had this discussion before and many of the gun enthusiasts are reluctant to do anything that they feel might "ruin" the experience for their kids. So while they do emphasize safety, it's all presented within a context of "this is fun, this is recreation, this is a good skill to learn"

Swimming is the same - those who are serious about water safety also emphasize how dangerous and unpredictable the swimming experience can be even as they teach the skills to do it safely and have fun. It's a delicate balance to do both.

 

[Stoked]

Most definitely!

But it's not just teaching safety, it's instilling a healthy dose of FEAR of guns - - or perhaps I should say a healthy dose of reality as to their dangers. We've had this discussion before and many of the gun enthusiasts are reluctant to do anything that they feel might "ruin" the experience for their kids. So while they do emphasize safety, it's all presented within a context of "this is fun, this is recreation, this is a good skill to learn"

Swimming is the same - those who are serious about water safety also emphasize how dangerous and unpredictable the swimming experience can be even as they teach the skills to do it safely and have fun. It's a delicate balance to do both.

Yeah, a healthy respect for guns and what they are capable of is far better than fear. Capable of should include the fall out of any shooting.

 

[lauriandres]

Most definitely!

But it's not just teaching safety, it's instilling a healthy dose of FEAR of guns - - or perhaps I should say a healthy dose of reality as to their dangers. We've had this discussion before and many of the gun enthusiasts are reluctant to do anything that they feel might "ruin" the experience for their kids. So while they do emphasize safety, it's all presented within a context of "this is fun, this is recreation, this is a good skill to learn"

Swimming is the same - those who are serious about water safety also emphasize how dangerous and unpredictable the swimming experience can be even as they teach the skills to do it safely and have fun. It's a delicate balance to do both.

Here is ironic-sarcastic video with english subs created by the Estonian Rescue Service stating that booze and swimming do not mix well. Ironically, the main actor was some month later driving while intoxicated.

Another one about drinking and swimming - does not have english subs, but i think the point is easy to understand.


Are there similar videos about gun safety?

 

[bigb]

OK, I'm going to make what may seem like a strange connection - - between water safety and gun safety. I think most of us can agree that it's important for children to learn to swim (or adults if they didn't learn as a child). But really, as important (or more important) is teaching basic water safety - which is not quite the same thing as teaching swimming. What should be a part of this is teaching a bit of a "healthy fear" of water. Yes, we want children to find swimming fun - but we also need to teach them to realize that it can be dangerous. Most children and young people drown not because they don't know how to swim. It's more because they are either overconfident in their abilities, or they are doing some dumb stuff that involves some additional risky behavior.

I think the gun situation is very similar. Kids should learn a fear of guns and the damage they can inflict before they ever have a chance to handle a gun. Kids should NEVER be allowed to think of a gun as a fun, recreational object. Most would say, of course that's not what I tell my kids at all - - but it's more important how you behave with the gun than what you say. If adults act very casually when handling firearms, that's the message the child is going to get - no matter what may be said about its dangers.

I agree with the sentiment and fundamentals behind what you’re saying, but I don’t think fear is correct. Substitute fear with respect and/or understanding. I view it the same as teaching/talking about sex and birth control. I don’t know how it’s dealt with in other states, but here in Utah, it’s basically a taboo topic in schools. If we can kick that ideology, we could do wonders. Same with guns.

 

[moevillini]

I agree with the sentiment and fundamentals behind what you’re saying, but I don’t think fear is correct. Substitute fear with respect and/or understanding. I view it the same as teaching/talking about sex and birth control. I don’t know how it’s dealt with in other states, but here in Utah, it’s basically a taboo topic in schools. If we can kick that ideology, we could do wonders. Same with guns.

I think it is somewhat dependent on the age of the child - I'm thinking that with young children, it's much easier to instill a healthy "fear" of guns than to try to instill respect and understanding. As they get a little older - like 5 or 6 years old, you can start with some of the other lessons. But with a 3 or 4 year old, you shouldn't make it seem at all attractive.

Maybe I'm viewing it wrong - I've not grown up around the gun culture.

 

[bigb]

I think it is somewhat dependent on the age of the child - I'm thinking that with young children, it's much easier to instill a healthy "fear" of guns than to try to instill respect and understanding. As they get a little older - like 5 or 6 years old, you can start with some of the other lessons. But with a 3 or 4 year old, you shouldn't make it seem at all attractive.

Maybe I'm viewing it wrong - I've not grown up around the gun culture.

I think striking fear of an object into people always leaves the mystery and intrigue there. There will always be the curiosity. Proper teaching leads to understanding and respect.
I didn’t necessarily grow up in “the gun culture”. My dad owned some guns, but we didn’t just go shooting all that often. He owned a couple hunting rifles and a couple shotguns. He used them to hunt. About once a year he would take us to go shooting. He had a pellet/BB gun that we would take camping to find a spot and shoot at paper plates and stuff. Some of my earliest memories are of him teaching us about the guns. How to handle them properly and safely. How to make sure it was unloaded. How to clean them. Unless they were being used, they were always under lock and key. I didn’t know where the key was until I turned 18. I still vividly recall him shooting a 2x4 with a shotgun and showing me the damage it did. Then he said (and I remember it word for word) “if it did this much damage to a hard and solid piece of wood, how much damage will it do to a person?” I was probably around 8 at the oldest. It didn’t make me fear guns. It made me respect the power of them. It stressed the importance of safety.