Happy No Collusion Day Everyone

[fishonjazz]

It seems to me that the media treats conservatives like Romney in similar ways, but unlike Trump, Romney chose to take the high road and was squashed in the process. The whole "binders full of women" thing, for instance. Conservatives have been very frustrated by they way their leadership has laid down and taken it when the media steamrolls them. That is the appeal to Trump. Yeah, he's a douche, but amazingly he is standing up for conservative principles. I've never seen anyone willing to endure so much abuse, or so fueled by chaos. I don't like him and did not vote for him, but I like the vast majority of his policies.

Still. My point stands. Do the media attack any other conservatives (or liberals) as much as they do Trump? Of course not. It's cause he is a giant douchebag. So don't be mad about the media treating him the way he deserves to be treated.



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[Red]

I don't think I follow the news as closely as you, but I could swear that Trump has increased sanctions on Russia and strongly rebuked them for aggressive military actions. I know that he accepted Putin's claims at a conference but don't you think that could be a part of a bigger picture of trying to develop a relationship with him? I am unaware of anything that Trump has done to benefit Russia or undermine America in that regard, though I hear the anti-Trump crowd frequently suggesting that he has.

I think he had always either delayed, or fought those sanctions, before implementing them. And his administration still is:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/19/us/politics/sanctions-oleg-deripaska-russia-trump.html

Since part of Russia's active measures is undermining NATO, I believe Putin has to be delighted in some of the attitudes expressed by Trump regarding NATO.

As far as "developing a relationship" with Putin, well, first, I know Trump has been in the habit of praising strongmen of both adversarial nations, like Russia, as well as those of our allies, like the Philippines and Turkey. And just the opposite of our ally leaders that lead liberal democracies. As for the Helsinki incident, siding with Putin while rejecting our own intelligence community, when we know full well Russia interfered in the election, undermines our own intelligence community and serves only to strengthen Putin. I have, just as Sen. McCain stated in 2016, believed the attack on our democracy was an "act of war". If sanctions is the proportional response, so be it. Kissing Putin's *** I do not regard as appropriate at all. Therefore, I need contrition from Putin before I stand in front of the entire world and openly support Putin.

 

[Red]

I've never seen anyone willing to endure so much abuse, or so fueled by chaos. I don't like him and did not vote for him, but I like the vast majority of his policies.

Well, yes, there you go. You're entitled to support his policies, I have assumed all along that it made him more palatable to you. In similar fashion, apart from my concern that cynical demagogues seldom benefit a nation, there are many core issues for me that put me solidly in a resistance category, even were he a far less abrasive individual.

But the words and some of the actions he has taken have combined to make him the most repulsive, morally bankrupt president of my lifetime. I find his defining quality to be cruelty. Based on all his words, and actions like separation of children in our immigration crisis.

I find him focused on division of Americans. How this helps my nation escapes me. Most newly elected presidents reach out to those who did not support him. Not only did that never happen, it never will.

He has remained focused on his base, and he will now lead that base in identifying any and all Americans who oppose him as the enemies of America. He will continue to conflate his own ego with our nation. And he may be even more emboldened now in that very direction. I don't believe his presidency will end well. But I am only along for the ride at this point, and I expect some rollicking American history going forward. So be it. What will be, will be.

 

[Joe Bagadonuts]

Still. My point stands. Do the media attack any other conservatives (or liberals) as much as they do Trump? Of course not. It's cause he is a giant douchebag. So don't be mad about the media treating him the way he deserves to be treated.



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I completely disagree with your point. When the media unfairly attacks a guy like Romney he puts his tail between his legs and they win. When they attack Trump he fights back with guns blazing. Their strategy of attacking him even harder, and of throwing everything including the kitchen sink at him even though they have no factual basis for doing so only helps him to convince people that his disdain for the media is fully justified. Their treatment of him is despicable. They would have a much easier time defeating him if they would avoid becoming so deranged.

 

[fishonjazz]

I completely disagree with your point. When the media unfairly attacks a guy like Romney he puts his tail between his legs and they win. When they attack Trump he fights back with guns blazing. Their strategy of attacking him even harder, and of throwing everything including the kitchen sink at him even though they have no factual basis for doing so only helps him to convince people that his disdain for the media is fully justified. Their treatment of him is despicable. They would have a much easier time defeating him if they would avoid becoming so deranged.

They attacked Clinton and Obama too. They attack everyone.
Trump gets the most attacks cause he deserves the most attacks.

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[Bawse Dawg]

Still. My point stands. Do the media attack any other conservatives (or liberals) as much as they do Trump? Of course not. It's cause he is a giant douchebag. So don't be mad about the media treating him the way he deserves to be treated.



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Seriously. Does it have to be a conspiracy theory? Or do people just not want the ***** grabber, handicap mocker, white supremacist supporter to be representing them to the world?


People really seem to miss the forest for the trees when it comes to Trump. He's a terrible human being, plain and simple.

 

[Joe Bagadonuts]

Well, yes, there you go. You're entitled to support his policies, I have assumed all along that it made him more palatable to you. In similar fashion, apart from my concern that cynical demagogues seldom benefit a nation, there are many core issues for me that put me solidly in a resistance category, even were he a far less abrasive individual.

But the words and some of the actions he has taken have combined to make him the most repulsive, morally bankrupt president of my lifetime. I find his defining quality to be cruelty. Based on all his words, and actions like separation of children in our immigration crisis.

I find him focused on division of Americans. How this helps my nation escapes me. Most newly elected presidents reach out to those who did not support him. Not only did that never happen, it never will.

He has remained focused on his base, and he will now lead that base in identifying any and all Americans who oppose him as the enemies of America. He will continue to conflate his own ego with our nation. And he may be even more emboldened now in that very direction. I don't believe his presidency will end well. But I am only along for the ride at this point, and I expect some rollicking American history going forward. So be it. What will be, will be.

So buried within here is what I see as another indication that you are buying into what the media tells you rather than what is reality. The most widely circulated videos that came out of children in "cages" weren't taken during Trump's administration. The "cages" weren't built during his administration.

When a group of people, including children, illegally crosses the border what do you think should happen? Should they just be released into America? Or should they be held for a trial? If you believe the first solution is a good one then I don't think we are going to be able to agree on much of this process at all. In my opinion the portion of the population that is most harmed by allowing destitute people to cross our border are the most impoverished Americans (and illegal aliens who are already here). The reason is that you are increasing the supply of uneducated labor, and therefore reducing wages. If the people who cross illegally need to be held, what should be done with the children?

 

[Joe Bagadonuts]

They attacked Clinton and Obama too. They attack everyone.
Trump gets the most attacks cause he deserves the most attacks.

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Show me your evidence of unwarranted attacks against Clinton and Obama. I can counter with many, many, many attacks against Trump that have proven to be completely unwarranted. I know you don't like him, and I can completely understand why, but I think you are making a major mistake (as is the anti-Trump crowd in general) to believe that any attack against him (no matter if it is fabricated or real) is serving your purposes.

 

[Red]

So buried within here is what I see as another indication that you are buying into what the media tells you rather than what is reality. The most widely circulated videos that came out of children in "cages" weren't taken during Trump's administration. The "cages" weren't built during his administration.

When a group of people, including children, illegally crosses the border what do you think should happen? Should they just be released into America? Or should they be held for a trial? If you believe the first solution is a good one then I don't think we are going to be able to agree on much of this process at all. In my opinion the portion of the population that is most harmed by allowing destitute people to cross our border are the most impoverished Americans (and illegal aliens who are already here). The reason is that you are increasing the supply of uneducated labor, and therefore reducing wages. If the people who cross illegally need to be held, what should be done with the children?

You'll have to forgive me, but I'm going to choose not to debate or discuss this issue with you. I will say that I would likely have to visit the border area, visit the facilities holding illegal immigrants, and in general get that close to the actual situation to know what you call "the reality", as opposed to relying on news outlets. I'm stuck relying on news outlets. Poor "divorced from reality" me.

But I'll let you subscribe to your "reality", and I guess I'll subscribe to mine. I do know that Trump uses scare tactics to get his base to believe we are dealing with an "invasion" of drug dealing human traffickers, (God knows how many women with the mouths taped, laying in back seats and inside trunks), while liberal outlets emphasise the plight of refugees fleeing violence in their home countries. I'll bet there are more of the latter. I think it's a refugee crisis. Happens all the time in human history. There is a huge one going on in the Middle East at the moment. Climate change is quite likely to trigger others.

Now, I do not have the solution, but I don't blame refugees from fleeing Central America anymore then I blame refugees from fleeing Syria. I believe in helping such people, but it's my fault for feeling that way. I know there are colder ways and crueler ways to respond to things like that, such ways likely suit Trump, and I do not have a solution to the current surge of such refugees at our southern border. You know, my wife tells me "we're no longer a country" if we don't build a wall. I don't know, I just see a refugee crisis, and there will be more in the future. But I don't have the answer. It won't cease until that triangle of Central American nations somehow makes life livable for all the people fleeing.

And in answer to my wife, I remind her that most of these arrivals are substantially Native American. And they were in this hemisphere long before "my kind". And it's all part of the history that "began" in 1492. Still ongoing. A new Brazilian president committed to wiping out uncontacted tribes in the Amazon, and refugees fleeing to the United States. It's sad, frankly, and I do not have a solution.

Well, I guess this does constitute discussing the issue, but, bottom line, this is how I feel, so I assume we have nothing to really discuss in the long run....

 

[fishonjazz]

Show me your evidence of unwarranted attacks against Clinton and Obama. I can counter with many, many, many attacks against Trump that have proven to be completely unwarranted. I know you don't like him, and I can completely understand why, but I think you are making a major mistake (as is the anti-Trump crowd in general) to believe that any attack against him (no matter if it is fabricated or real) is serving your purposes.

I believe all attacks against Trump are warranted.
Be a decent human. That's all

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[Red]

I don't think I follow the news as closely as you, but I could swear that Trump has increased sanctions on Russia and strongly rebuked them for aggressive military actions. I know that he accepted Putin's claims at a conference but don't you think that could be a part of a bigger picture of trying to develop a relationship with him? I am unaware of anything that Trump has done to benefit Russia or undermine America in that regard, though I hear the anti-Trump crowd frequently suggesting that he has.

I was still thinking about this when the detour into immigration issues was introduced...

I don't know if this legislation has been voted on yet. In general, Congress has taken the lead, not Trump, where Russian sanctions are concerned. And it has been bipartisan, despite Trump dragging his feet where such sanctions are concerned.

https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blo...-but-measured-way-forward-on-russia-sanctions

A look at Russian sanctions in general:

https://fas.org/sgp/crs/row/R45415.pdf

 

[fishonjazz]

Imo it shouldn't be seen as some noble and great accomplishment that Trump stands up to the media.
I would be much more impressed if he looked at the medias criticisms of him, did some self reflection, and came to the conclusion that he should try to do and be better. Show a little remorse or guilt when he is being a douche.

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[One Brow]

They attacked Clinton and Obama too. They attack everyone.
Trump gets the most attacks cause he deserves the most attacks.

Also because he demonizes the press like no POTUS before him. If Trump were to back off from that, within a year the press would go back to being the tame lapdogs (if occasionally yippy) they were under Clinton, Bush, and Obama.

 

[fishonjazz]

Also because he demonizes the press like no POTUS before him. If Trump were to back off from that, within a year the press would go back to being the tame lapdogs (if occasionally yippy) they were under Clinton, Bush, and Obama.

Ya that too

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[Getting Traded]

How can you be happy about anything that might exonerate Trump. Everyday with him as POTUS is more depressing.

 

[Stoked]

Also because he demonizes the press like no POTUS before him. If Trump were to back off from that, within a year the press would go back to being the tame lapdogs (if occasionally yippy) they were under Clinton, Bush, and Obama.

On this note I absolutely disagree. Trump does demonize and antagonize. Fully agreed. But the majority of the media will never go to lapdog status for Trump.

 

[One Brow]

On this note I absolutely disagree. Trump does demonize and antagonize. Fully agreed. But the majority of the media will never go to lapdog status for Trump.

Perhaps not. However, as long as the administration holds out notions like "access" and "exclusives" to journalists, they have solid financial incentives to do so.

 

[Joe Bagadonuts]

You'll have to forgive me, but I'm going to choose not to debate or discuss this issue with you. I will say that I would likely have to visit the border area, visit the facilities holding illegal immigrants, and in general get that close to the actual situation to know what you call "the reality", as opposed to relying on news outlets. I'm stuck relying on news outlets. Poor "divorced from reality" me.

But I'll let you subscribe to your "reality", and I guess I'll subscribe to mine. I do know that Trump uses scare tactics to get his base to believe we are dealing with an "invasion" of drug dealing human traffickers, (God knows how many women with the mouths taped, laying in back seats and inside trunks), while liberal outlets emphasise the plight of refugees fleeing violence in their home countries. I'll bet there are more of the latter. I think it's a refugee crisis. Happens all the time in human history. There is a huge one going on in the Middle East at the moment. Climate change is quite likely to trigger others.

Now, I do not have the solution, but I don't blame refugees from fleeing Central America anymore then I blame refugees from fleeing Syria. I believe in helping such people, but it's my fault for feeling that way. I know there are colder ways and crueler ways to respond to things like that, such ways likely suit Trump, and I do not have a solution to the current surge of such refugees at our southern border. You know, my wife tells me "we're no longer a country" if we don't build a wall. I don't know, I just see a refugee crisis, and there will be more in the future. But I don't have the answer. It won't cease until that triangle of Central American nations somehow makes life livable for all the people fleeing.

And in answer to my wife, I remind her that most of these arrivals are substantially Native American. And they were in this hemisphere long before "my kind". And it's all part of the history that "began" in 1492. Still ongoing. A new Brazilian president committed to wiping out uncontacted tribes in the Amazon, and refugees fleeing to the United States. It's sad, frankly, and I do not have a solution.

Well, I guess this does constitute discussing the issue, but, bottom line, this is how I feel, so I assume we have nothing to really discuss in the long run....

We don't need to debate. Just google "children in cages obama" and decide for yourself whether the media has been telling you the truth.

 

[Joe Bagadonuts]

I believe all attacks against Trump are warranted.
Be a decent human. That's all

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You're too good for this, Fish. Just because you don't like a guy is not a justifiable reason to publish untrue claims. You wouldn't be okay with it if someone was posting lies about you. Why should it be okay for the media to publish lies about anyone?

 

[Joe Bagadonuts]

I was still thinking about this when the detour into immigration issues was introduced...

I don't know if this legislation has been voted on yet. In general, Congress has taken the lead, not Trump, where Russian sanctions are concerned. And it has been bipartisan, despite Trump dragging his feet where such sanctions are concerned.

https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blo...-but-measured-way-forward-on-russia-sanctions

A look at Russian sanctions in general:

https://fas.org/sgp/crs/row/R45415.pdf

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/11/08/trump-administration-ups-russia-sanctions-977650