Hayward & Jazz - not close to agreement (Hayward leaving 4/40 on the table)

[b_line]

Yeah, OKC made the mistake of trading away Harden just as he was entering RFA. It would be interesting to see what Dennis does if Hayward had a good year statistically but didn't really enter that 2nd best player in a contender status.

If Burke doesn't develop the way we wanted him to, would Hayward for Rondo make sense?

I thought Harden was an "extend and trade" situation, where he is just going into his max contract extension this year? It would be like us signing an extension with Hayward, and then trading him immediately, only to watch him become a top ten player in the league. Harden has been consistently about 15% better than Hayward throughout all his numbers in his career, up until last year, when he made a huge leap being a number 1 option on a mediocre team. His shooting percentage also went down to 40% last year, probably about where Hayward's will be this year.

 

[cowhide]

Yeah, OKC made the mistake of trading away Harden just as he was entering RFA. It would be interesting to see what Dennis does if Hayward had a good year statistically but didn't really enter that 2nd best player in a contender status.

If Burke doesn't develop the way we wanted him to, would Hayward for Rondo make sense?

OKC traded Harden because they overpaid for Ibaka and trade for Perkins. They couldn't afford a third MAX contract which is what Harden wanted.

The Jazz didn't get rid of Dantley because he was the best player on a bad team. Frank Layden got rid of Dantley because he went to the Union and complained about how the Jazz/Layden wasn't abiding by the CBA at the time. It was a dumb move and years later Frank admitted it was because Dantley was a stud player. Frank let it get personal and that is why he traded Dantley.

 

[Thee Jazz Fan]

My stance is I'd kill to get Hayward extended for 9-10 million a year. Those who are rooting for him to get 12-13 million are just stupid and not jazz fans. Back on topic... I also feel that getting him at 9-10 million is not really possible. As of now I think he's worth 9-10 million, but believe he will at some point improve and out perform that price range. I think he'll be really good, and if we had to go 12 million to extend him then I'm fine with that as I have a funny feeling one one will go big next off season to get Hayward. I want the jazz to get the best bargain on Hayward, and that might mean over paying by a million or two.

Reading through this thread has been maddening because there are so many points of view as to how good he is or will be, that arguing money is pointless.

 

[Jazz4ever]

OKC traded Harden because they overpaid for Ibaka and trade for Perkins. They couldn't afford a third MAX contract which is what Harden wanted.

The Jazz didn't get rid of Dantley because he was the best player on a bad team. Frank Layden got rid of Dantley because he went to the Union and complained about how the Jazz/Layden wasn't abiding by the CBA at the time. It was a dumb move and years later Frank admitted it was because Dantley was a stud player. Frank let it get personal and that is why he traded Dantley.

OKC screwed up. Ibaka is on a great deal at 12 million a year, and Perkins could have been amnestied. They still would have been a little over the cap but well worth it. If Durant walks from the Thunder come next contract, they are going to look back on this decision and cry.

 

[The Midnight]

OKC screwed up. Ibaka is on a great deal at 12 million a year, and Perkins could have been amnestied. They still would have been a little over the cap but well worth it. If Durant walks from the Thunder come next contract, they are going to look back on this decision and cry.

This. Rep'd.

 

[NUMBERICA]

Yeah, OKC made the mistake of trading away Harden just as he was entering RFA.

The situation isn't at all analogous. Starting with that Hayward isn't a max player and Harden (obviously) was/is.

 

[NUMBERICA]

OKC screwed up. Ibaka is on a great deal at 12 million a year, and Perkins could have been amnestied. They still would have been a little over the cap but well worth it. If Durant walks from the Thunder come next contract, they are going to look back on this decision and cry.

The situation was honestly a no-brainer. In that the way they went about it all was as if they had no brain. Including that Harden is and was better than Westbrook. They could've had Durant, Westbrook, Harden, Sefolosha, Ibaka, and Collison locked up and filled the rest of the roster out with ring-chasing vets and guys on rookie-scale deals for at least a few years.

 

[UGLI baby]

The situation isn't at all analogous. Starting with that Hayward isn't a max player and Harden (obviously) was/is.

Family site bro.

 

[b_line]

The situation isn't at all analogous. Starting with that Hayward isn't a max player and Harden (obviously) was/is.

Harden obviously is a max player, but there was a lot of discussion as to whether he was then or not. He was not THAT much better than Hayward at the same point in his career, and OKC, and a lot of other teams for that matter, doubted whether or not he was a max guy, or around a 12 mil per guy like Ibaka. That was a huge discussion, and that was a big reason why OKC traded him. Poor decision, as everyone sees now, but nobody could really predict that his per 36 stats would jump that dramatically in year one of the trade, even if his efficiency went down a fair amount.

 

[NUMBERICA]

Harden obviously is a max player, but there was a lot of discussion as to whether he was then or not. He was not THAT much better than Hayward at the same point in his career, and OKC.

It was a dumb conversation because Harden was indeed THAT much better than Hayward. All Harden did in his third season was be the second-best player on an NBA finalist and turn in one of the most efficient scoring campaigns ever seen (both as the man and as a complementary scorer [which is in itself a rare quality]). Then get a gold medal.

Hayward after his third year once again struggled to find a niche to thrive in and once again strung together some good games then looked terrible for another couple of games. Hayward is the only member of teh CORE 4 LOL that has been given every opportunity to succeed and his success has been marginal.

 

[Litany]

Harden obviously is a max player, but there was a lot of discussion as to whether he was then or not. He was not THAT much better than Hayward at the same point in his career, and OKC, and a lot of other teams for that matter, doubted whether or not he was a max guy, or around a 12 mil per guy like Ibaka. That was a huge discussion, and that was a big reason why OKC traded him. Poor decision, as everyone sees now, but nobody could really predict that his per 36 stats would jump that dramatically in year one of the trade, even if his efficiency went down a fair amount.

I agree on how undervalued Harden was by the Thunder, but i don't think him and Hayward were even close at the same point in their careers and saying that is unfair to Hayward.

It's as wrong as saying Hayward could be Ginobili. Not. Gonna. Happen.

I have been a big supporter if Hayward but i just don't see him being that caliber guy anymore and that's fine. I was hopeful but I have taken off the rose colored glasses and can evaluate him rationally now.

He is an average defender at best, mostly against 2s that he's bigger than, struggling against 3s, he's a very good 3pt shooter and off ball scorer and he doesn't have an ability to create for himself the way someone like Ginobili or Harden can.

We gotta be careful with this contract.

 

[franklin]

Harden obviously is a max player, but there was a lot of discussion as to whether he was then or not. He was not THAT much better than Hayward at the same point in his career, and OKC, and a lot of other teams for that matter, doubted whether or not he was a max guy, or around a 12 mil per guy like Ibaka. That was a huge discussion, and that was a big reason why OKC traded him. Poor decision, as everyone sees now, but nobody could really predict that his per 36 stats would jump that dramatically in year one of the trade, even if his efficiency went down a fair amount.

I'm baffled that anyone is still willing to make this claim. Your take on OKCs evaluation couldn't be further from the truth for starters (they had no doubt he was a max player). Then there's the fact that Houston immediately franchised him just as 29 other teams with the financial wherewithal would have.

But you're right, there was a group of meatheads on JF pretending Harden was a question mark.