Gyp Rosetti
Banned
I'd do Martin for Okur and filler. I don't think they would though.
Houston shopping everyone
- Thread starter Beantown
- Start date
Twin Towers
Well-Known Member
I will give him credit for getting the free throw line but he doesn't play within the offense. He shoots when he wants and lives in his own world on the court. And he is a horrible defender. And has a huge injury history.
Most stars get the the free throw line and that is what got Martin his big contract but the fact is the rest of his game does not make up for it.
Twin Towers
Well-Known Member
I suggested this trade in another forum but i did not suggest a 1st round pick. I suggested trading Fesenko (Who Houston wanted this past off-season).
I bet the Rockets would covet Fesenko more than the Jazz first round pick 2 years from now.
And I bet the Jazz would rather trade Fesenko than not have a 1st round pick for 2 years.
I bet the Rockets would covet Fesenko more than the Jazz first round pick 2 years from now.
And I bet the Jazz would rather trade Fesenko than not have a 1st round pick for 2 years.
Mr. McGibblets
Well-Known Member
The Rockets weren't even willing to give Fes $2 mill or a multiyear deal. A first round pick is guaranteed both 3+ years and >$2mill - more than Fes got. So, I do think the Rockets value a 1st round pick more than Fes, or at least they did last summer.
Twin Towers
Well-Known Member
Not sure if that was the case. I heard reports that he was offfered a deal but he decided to stay with the Jazz. I heard Fesenko say that in a interview.
And the rockets also might of thought the jazz would match. i have heard both reports but just because a Fesenko did not sign a contract does not mean the Rockets valued a 1st round pick more. You can't compare the 2. Too many variables.
gregbroncs
Well-Known Member
We get Battier and SJax for AK and Fess....Sold.
Of course no way in hell this trade happens but nice for Utah anyway.
gregbroncs
Well-Known Member
Your actually selling me on Martin. His defense is a fairly big hurdle for me to get over though. Offensively he is what our team could really use. But I like that all of our current wings hustle on defense and have been good overall this year. He would be a problem on that end of the floor but his offense may be good enough to overlook it.
Twin Towers
Well-Known Member
His offense does not overlook his defense. And his offense is overrated.
carolinajazz
Well-Known Member
...he may not be a chucker....but is he a hopper?
How is he overrated? Who's overrating him? I've stated facts, you're just pulling **** out of your ***.
Go to a Kings or Rockets board and give me a percentage of people that complain about Martin's offense. Because right now, your argument is absolutely toothless.
His injury history is not good. His D sucks. But that does not somehow make him a bad offensive player.
https://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/player/_/stat/field-goals/sort/scoringEfficiency (look at all those crappy players under him)
https://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/player/_/stat/3-points/sort/threePointFieldGoalsMade (this listing just changed, but he's still top-5 and doing it at 44%)
https://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/player/_/stat/free-throws/sort/freeThrowsMade (look at all those crappy players under him)
https://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/player/_/stat/field-goals/sort/avgFieldGoalsAttempted (30th in attempts as the primary scorer on his team? What a chucker.)
If Martin is a chucker, there are far, far worse players that could be chucking as he would score 157 points per 100 possessions, which of course is absurd and a mile above the league average for team scoring.
https://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/player/_/stat/3-points/sort/threePointFieldGoalsMade (this listing just changed, but he's still top-5 and doing it at 44%)
https://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/player/_/stat/free-throws/sort/freeThrowsMade (look at all those crappy players under him)
https://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/player/_/stat/field-goals/sort/avgFieldGoalsAttempted (30th in attempts as the primary scorer on his team? What a chucker.)
If Martin is a chucker, there are far, far worse players that could be chucking as he would score 157 points per 100 possessions, which of course is absurd and a mile above the league average for team scoring.
Twin Towers
Well-Known Member
I am sorry I can't show a "fact" about how his shot selection is horrible. There isn't a stat for that. I guess watching the guy play over the years is pulling something out of my ***. Since your obviously a fan who relies on "stats" and thinks they tell the whole story.
He takes his shots on his own terms. Everything I stated about him earlier can only be determined by watching him play. Not a stat. Sorry it takes more work than just googling advance stats.
The majority of his points do not come within the flow of the offense. Again sorry you have to watch him to notice this. He has played this way since the beginning. Whether on the kings or Rockets his game has not changed. You will see great ball movement than you will see him catch the ball and do his stupid jab step and not care what else is going on on the court. And either drive to the hoop or shoot a step back fadeway. These are not isolation plays either.
He is a great scorer no question about it. I will not argue that. But its how he is getting his points. He is a player that ruins team chemistry (ball movement).
You can post all the so called "facts' as you want but they only show part of the story. Like your scoring per 100 possessions stat. That stat can also be a bad thing. It doesn't mean its always good. There is always the other side. Its not so black and white the way you "stat" fans think.
Twin Towers
Well-Known Member
Trust me I think Martin is a very crafty scorer and I love how he gets to the free throw line. I wish we had a guy who could consistently get the the line. But he would ruin our offensive flow. Maybe he could change his habits that he has had since being in the league but its highly unlikely. And I would rather have a good defensive player for a lot less money who is more durable than Martin who only plays about 70 percent of his games and stops ball movement.
Guys like Kobe, Wade, Lebron etc actually stop ball movement a lot. but they also know when to shoot and when to pass. They are play makers so that is what makes them special. Martin is not a play maker and never has been and he ends up hurting his team with how he scores. The elite guys are such a threat in so many areas they can actually create there own offensive game for the team. Martin does that exact opposite. Its like he is the only guy on the court and the team doesn't have to worry about him hurting them in different ways. Martin is a overrated for this reason. Being a good scorer can actually hurt your team. There is plenty of past NBA players that have been the same. It just took years of play until the league figured it out.
More scoring doesn't always equal a better team even if its something your team is lacking. Especially when he is taking points away touches from other teammates. Kevin Martin is in his own little world on offense. And his defense is so bad we shouldn't even consider him for 10 Million a year.
Guys like Kobe, Wade, Lebron etc actually stop ball movement a lot. but they also know when to shoot and when to pass. They are play makers so that is what makes them special. Martin is not a play maker and never has been and he ends up hurting his team with how he scores. The elite guys are such a threat in so many areas they can actually create there own offensive game for the team. Martin does that exact opposite. Its like he is the only guy on the court and the team doesn't have to worry about him hurting them in different ways. Martin is a overrated for this reason. Being a good scorer can actually hurt your team. There is plenty of past NBA players that have been the same. It just took years of play until the league figured it out.
More scoring doesn't always equal a better team even if its something your team is lacking. Especially when he is taking points away touches from other teammates. Kevin Martin is in his own little world on offense. And his defense is so bad we shouldn't even consider him for 10 Million a year.
Sad thing is that we did have that player, but gave him away to Portland for nothing. What Wes is doing now for Porty is EXACTLY what we need. Good scoring, good shooting, good defense, durability, unselfish play. Yet Jazz were unwilling to pay that guy average League salary. Wanted a steal of a deal. Now we sit here and talk about how nice it would to have a guy who can score and play defense when we had this guy all along and all we had to day is pay him average money. How pathetic is that?
Twin Towers
Well-Known Member
Financially it made sense. No way we could of afforded that contract. But at the same time I think that we should of been trying to dump AK's contract to make room for Matthews. Maybe we tried but it didn't seem like it to me.
Matthews was the perfect 2 guard for us. Sucks we had to let him go.
I already mentioned that several times on this board: luxury penalty for Wes this year over Raja and Elson would be only 1.5 mil. And next year, AK is off the books regardless. So, we are not talking about breaking a bank here. We did not keep Wes because KOC is an idiot, not because of AK.
For starters, for the sake of this discussion, Elson makes $884,293 (he's earning the veteran's minimum, so anything he makes past the minimum for a 2nd year veteran is paid by the league and the 2nd year number is all that counts against the cap).
https://www.eskimo.com/~pbender/contracts
Matthews is making $5,765,000 this year and the total combined salaries of Bell and Elson are $3,884,293, which after the tax, the cost difference for the Jazz JUST NEXT YEAR, would be <3.75 million. But that's just the beginning, there's an additional $20 million MINIMUM in total cost difference over the lives of the respective contracts and that's not including whatever possible penalties might be incurred after the new CBA.
The Jazz had a choice between matching an outrageous offer sheet for a 1st year undrafted free agent and filling out the roster for $24 million less. This was also all factored into whether to get Jefferson or not. I wasn't a fan of the Jefferson acquisition myself, but no person in their right mind can look at me with a straight face and say at the time they'd rather have Wesley Matthews than Raja Bell and Al Jefferson. I will say it again, whether or not Matthews turns into the next Kobe Bryant or not, that contract offer was lunacy when it came down. If it works out for the Blazers, it's by serendipity because I don't believe they had the right intentions in mind (they didn't have a GM at the time, they have the money to screw the Jazz, and they tried to screw the Jazz).