How does this make you feel?

[UB]

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[UB]

Actually, I meant to start a thread about the Protest tonight on the COB and Temple Square. I'm going.


I want the LDS to understand that its actions have consequences. I think it was foolish to say gay people can change, when our current scientific data says the contrary. I'm fine with anyone who chooses to believe it, but I think the Church should understand that it's being socially irresponsible; you're dealing with people's lives here.



But seriously, these pictures are fascinating.

 

[franklin]

I think you should understand that you're being socially irresponsible. You're actions have consequences. There are going to be poor LDS children all across the nation, who already experience extreme criticism at times just for believing the way they do, that are going to be treated terribly following these demonstrations. How many are going to commit suicide thanks to your actions? You're dealing with people's lives here.

 

[Scat]

I think you should understand that you're being socially irresponsible. You're actions have consequences. There are going to be poor LDS children all across the nation, who already experience extreme criticism at times just for believing the way they do, that are going to be treated terribly following these demonstrations. How many are going to commit suicide thanks to your actions? You're dealing with people's lives here.

It's all good. Gay lives are more valuable than straight.

 

[UB]

It's all good. Gay lives are more valuable than straight.

In terms of blood richness, or total organ mass? Because some people would disagree with your generalized statement.

 

[Scat]

In terms of blood richness, or total organ mass? Because some people would disagree with your generalized statement.

In terms of their rarity. There are less gays on the planet than heterosexuals.

 

[UB]

I think you should understand that you're being socially irresponsible. You're actions have consequences. There are going to be poor LDS children all across the nation, who already experience extreme criticism at times just for believing the way they do, that are going to be treated terribly following these demonstrations. How many are going to commit suicide thanks to your actions? You're dealing with people's lives here.

Isn't that your fault for raising children to believe that segregation is cool?

 

[UB]

For the record, though, how many children are beaten to death for being LDS?


I'm opposed to any kind of violence or unhealthy mental distress towards anybody.

 

[Archie Moses]

President Packer didn't tell gay people to go get cured. In fact he didn't even say anything about homosexuality because his talk was focused on pornography with general applications to sexual immorality (biblically defined for around 2000 years).

The only clear comments President Packer made which can be applied to homosexuality was a reiteration of the church's view of the eternal relation of mankind as a family tree, divinely perpetuated by natural families of a father, mother, and children. Packer noted that this view will not and cannot change from the biblically sanctioned marriage of man and woman. He was clearly attempting to disabuse people of any notion that church doctrine would ever accept sexual activity outside of the marriage of a man and a woman. He also repeated the promise that those who don't have a natural family in this life will have the opportunity of full exaltation.

People are free to reject the Bible and/or President Packer's comments. Some of those people will leave the LDS church, but anyone who puts words into President Packer's mouth will be guilty of "calling good evil, and evil good" as he quoted from the book of Isaiah. Rather than claiming that Packer said that gays can be cured, that people should marry people they aren't attracted to, or that hateful exclusionary behavior is ever acceptable; HRC and other groups should stop lying and honestly look at the church's official statements on homosexuality made in the last decade. They may still disagree with the church's official position, but working with the church is more likely to result in mutual respect in a civil community than dishonestly promoting hate as their current claims do.

This. +1.


People need to get off their high horse and quit acting like the LDS Church is about "hate" and "segregation". Unbelievable. The LDS Church simple believes marriage is between a man and woman and that's God's plan.

 

[Bronco70]

How many gay v. LDS threads do we need?

Really.

 

[KatieMCR]

President Packer didn't tell gay people to go get cured. In fact he didn't even say anything about homosexuality because his talk was focused on pornography with general applications to sexual immorality (biblically defined for around 2000 years).

The only clear comments President Packer made which can be applied to homosexuality was a reiteration of the church's view of the eternal relation of mankind as a family tree, divinely perpetuated by natural families of a father, mother, and children. Packer noted that this view will not and cannot change from the biblically sanctioned marriage of man and woman. He was clearly attempting to disabuse people of any notion that church doctrine would ever accept sexual activity outside of the marriage of a man and a woman. He also repeated the promise that those who don't have a natural family in this life will have the opportunity of full exaltation.

People are free to reject the Bible and/or President Packer's comments. Some of those people will leave the LDS church, but anyone who puts words into President Packer's mouth will be guilty of "calling good evil, and evil good" as he quoted from the book of Isaiah. Rather than claiming that Packer said that gays can be cured, that people should marry people they aren't attracted to, or that hateful exclusionary behavior is ever acceptable; HRC and other groups should stop lying and honestly look at the church's official statements on homosexuality made in the last decade. They may still disagree with the church's official position, but working with the church is more likely to result in mutual respect in a civil community than dishonestly promoting hate as their current claims do.

FALSE!!!

Here's proof.

At the crux of the issue of homosexuality and the Church are the three great interrelated beliefs: (1) there is an element of choice involved in becoming and remaining homosexual, (2) it can be cured, and (3) our children and youth can be recruited or enticed into homosexuality. Every time we have sought out help for our son and family on this issue from Priesthood leaders or General Authorities we have been summarily referred to the experts at LDS Social Services. Because the lives and well-being of so many trusting individuals and family members are at stake here, it would seem that much stock is put in the expertise of LDS Social Services in this matter. Isn't it fairly obvious, though, that the "experts" you rely on at LDS Social Services to professionally corroborate and support the doctrine and policy of the Church would support whatever position you have mandated to be the only correct one? Such is the level of respect for and faith in the office you hold. In all honesty, to disagree with a member of the Twelve on a matter of doctrine is tantamount to heresy. I'm sure you are aware that the American Psychiatric Association has denounced "reparative therapy" for treating homosexuals as both ineffective and damaging. I find it ironic that when a fundamentalist religious group shuns sound medical intervention as a doctrine we find it appalling and backwards - yet when that same sound medical advice denounces the practice of "reparative therapy" we call it "worldly" false doctrine. I guess it all depends on just whose ox is being gored.

In To The One you preach that homosexuality is not innate, but is a curable condition. Your fundamental proof: God wouldn't make a mistake like this. By preaching this, you set the impossible goal of "cure" as the standard to which my son must hold himself responsible, as must his family and all other Church members. Until he chooses to do what he must to be "cured," he hasn't done enough. He will never have done enough. He will always come up failing in the most fundamental aspect of his entire existence as a child of his Heavenly Father. He is a pervert, an aberration, and an abomination. There is nothing left in this life or the next. How would you deal with this if you were him? Homosexuality is not a "condition" that can be "cured." My proof: I have yet to meet even one venerable grandfather with a fine posterity (or anyone else for that matter) who says he was once homosexual but was long ago cured - and my experience as a father observing my son from birth.

Perhaps the most hurtful aspect of To The One is your revelation that the fundamental reason why my son has not been "cured" is because of his selfishness. When I inform other people that this is actually what you preach in To The One, they are incredulous (members included). They respond "Obviously you have misread or misconstrued what Elder Packer said." You are well aware that this is precisely what is said. As one who knows my son and his heart better than you, your doctrine that my son's selfishness is at the core of his ability or inability to be cured of his homosexuality is offensive in the extreme, and evidences the lack of any meaningful inquiry into this issue beyond the application of pure dogma. In saying this it is not my intent to offend you. It is, simply, incredible that you could hit upon anything quite so insensitive and ignorant of the facts. Indeed, my son is the most unselfish and Christ-like person I know. This holds true for most of the LDS homosexuals I know well. They have to be to keep trying.

Your doctrine of "choice" and "curability" is also at the core of why the Church and its members in reality view my son and those like him as latter-day lepers. If homosexuality (1) is not inborn, (2) has an element of choice, and (3) can be cured - then it must be able to be taught or suggested. Others must also be susceptible to being enticed or recruited. Our children are capable of being infected by these people and not becoming mothers and fathers. It is, therefore, a frontal assault on the family. The "hate the sin but love the sinner" platitude cannot disguise the fact that in reality the members of the Church are taught to loathe and fear our son and those like him. This qualified and synthetic "love" is nothing more than the few alms hurriedly and begrudgingly parted with to salve the Christian conscience, while never once entertaining the idea of actually descending into the leper pit. We would never expose our children to this for it might infect them. If sexual orientation is a matter of choice, when exactly did you choose to be heterosexual? When and how often did you reaffirm your choice to stay that way? Why aren't my other children, who idolize their brother, even the slightest bit interested in adopting a homosexual "lifestyle" or in homosexual experimentation? Why would anyone choose to be an abomination and an outcast? It defies reason.

Now here is Packer's exact quote from his conference talk.

"Some suppose that they were pre-set and cannot overcome what they feel are inborn tendencies toward the impure and unnatural. Not so! Why would our Heavenly Father do that to anyone? Remember he is our father.”

 

[UB]

How many gay v. LDS threads do we need?

Really.

Two.

Because that's how many ******* there are in a sexual relationship between two men, and these threads really drive home that message, I think.

 

[Archie Moses]

Katie, I hope you know I didn't write that, and I was giving it a plus for the "hate" part. I probably could have edited out a bit of that. Yeah, I know what he was talking about, and I don't know why that poster said Packer wasn't talking about homosexuality. I have no problem with gay groups fighting for gay rights and disagreeing with the LDS church, but I don't know why they have to make the LDS Church look like some hateful, radical cult looking to destroy lives. I don't think that's the case.

 

[UB]

This. +1.


People need to get off their high horse and quit acting like the LDS Church is about "hate" and "segregation". Unbelievable. The LDS Church simple believes marriage is between a man and woman and that's God's plan.

Arch, it's no high horse I'm on here.

We can mince words about what the Apostle said, but it's the "message" that his church's followers take from such speech that is, in my opinion, irresponsible and hurtful.

Again, I think it's fine for people to believe these things. But people act upon their beliefs, sometimes with hazardous results. Just imagine a world where people could believe as they wish and not discriminate against others based on their beliefs. Would it be a lot like Sweden?

 

[TroutBum]

I love gay unicorns.

 

[UB]

I love gay unicorns.

See, now we're getting somewhere...

 

[YB85]

Mmmm...Fire Panda.

 

[Archie Moses]

Mmmm...Fire Panda.

That panda got punched in two eyes.

 

[C l u t c H 385]

I think it was foolish to say gay people can change, when our current scientific data says the contrary.

That's a terrible argument. Science once said the earth was flat. Or is it?

 

[KatieMCR]

Katie, I hope you know I didn't write that, and I was giving it a plus for the "hate" part. I probably could have edited out a bit of that. Yeah, I know what he was talking about, and I don't know why that poster said Packer wasn't talking about homosexuality. I have no problem with gay groups fighting for gay rights and disagreeing with the LDS church, but I don't know why they have to make the LDS Church look like some hateful, radical cult looking to destroy lives. I don't think that's the case.

Yes I realize you didn't write it. My response to what you quoted still stands.