How many productive players have the jazz lost for nothing in return?

[Darkwing Duck]

The Jazz never should have traded for Al Jefferson. No matter what was going on with the team. It was a terrible trade.

Instead of doing what they did. They should have kept Mathews, kept Koufus, or work on some other trade, and kept the two firsts. Oh, and they should have Drafted Paul George. They reached for Hayward. A lot of people thought George was gonna be good.

So instead of all that mess, our core would have been Dwill, Mathews, Paul George, Millsap, and some serviceable center.

That was my exact thinking during that whole process. I wanted all those players playing for the team. Instead the Jazz got all retarded and did a bunch of stupid ****.

Who knows, maybe everything would have been a lot different with Dwill too. That team could have been pretty damn good.

But ya, its done. Whatever. After trading for Big Al, I knew the Dwill trade had to be done. Wasnt even mad about that. Where we are now I like, but it could get really screwed up if they dont follow through with the tank. On record about that.

That's a tremendous amount of revisionist history.

First off, Hayward outplayed George in college and then in the workout they had for the Jazz. Hayward wasn't taken out of his projection range. George was predicted to be so good that he was projected to go Number 1.....I mean in the 11-15 range, just like Hayward.

Second of all, the Jefferson trade was an understandable trade. I certainly wasn't pro Al Jefferson given the metrics, but Boozer was gone, Okur was done, and you have Deron Williams in his early prime that you need to build around. That's a win now time table. Paul George was a rookie who didn't do anything for his team in his first year, so that wouldn't have changed the Williams trade. Millsap was unproven as a starter at that point, and an unproven starter and Fransisco Elson as your front court is quite the lineup that you would want blown up anyway. Add a statistically below average SG in Matthews, and a rookie SF, and its a pretty bad team. So in the win now scenario the Jazz were in, they got a proven scorer in Jefferson and compete for playoffs. I don't recall a proven big being on the market for late firsts and backup big other than Jefferson.

So I don't believe for one second that the Jazz could ever, EVER have had a core that you mentioned. Not one chance.

 

[Hotdog]

That's a tremendous amount of revisionist history.

First off, Hayward outplayed George in college and then in the workout they had for the Jazz. Hayward wasn't taken out of his projection range. George was predicted to be so good that he was projected to go Number 1.....I mean in the 11-15 range, just like Hayward.

Second of all, the Jefferson trade was an understandable trade. I certainly wasn't pro Al Jefferson given the metrics, but Boozer was gone, Okur was done, and you have Deron Williams in his early prime that you need to build around. That's a win now time table. Paul George was a rookie who didn't do anything for his team in his first year, so that wouldn't have changed the Williams trade. Millsap was unproven as a starter at that point, and an unproven starter and Fransisco Elson as your front court is quite the lineup that you would want blown up anyway. Add a statistically below average SG in Matthews, and a rookie SF, and its a pretty bad team. So in the win now scenario the Jazz were in, they got a proven scorer in Jefferson and compete for playoffs. I don't recall a proven big being on the market for late firsts and backup big other than Jefferson.

So I don't believe for one second that the Jazz could ever, EVER have had a core that you mentioned. Not one chance.

1. Wesley Mathews is a might fine basketball player.

2. How do you or anyone know whether or not Deron would have re-signed or not?? Pretty presumptuous isnt it? Seron still lives in Utah btw, so I dont think its money in the bag he would have left. He might have liked what he saw in George. Probably would have never had the ball throwing incident either.

3. Keeping Dwill, and Mathews would have been easy as pie. Drafting George would have been even easier. He was projected to go in that ninth slot by everyone. Hayward was projected 19th by most.

4. Giving Millsap his chance to start would have been an even easier choice for me. I believed in him all along.

5. Not ttading for Al....the easiest. Just do a little scouting. Not hard.



It would have been beyond easy to form that core (Dwill, Matthews, Millsap, and George.

Are you kidding me?


Whats the problem?

 

[Darkwing Duck]

Matthews was a 9-2-1.5 player as a rookie in 24 minutes with solid but not spectacular defense. He was a less athletic, better shooting DeMarre Carroll his rookie year.

It's also presumptuous to think a contending team would step back and start Deron, a second year part time starter, a rookie taken in the late lottery, a first year starter, and some random center. That's a rebuild. A team with a star in Williams is NEVER going to do that unless they time traveled.

 

[Hotdog]

Matthews was a 9-2-1.5 player as a rookie in 24 minutes with solid but not spectacular defense. He was a less athletic, better shooting DeMarre Carroll his rookie year.

It's also presumptuous to think a contending team would step back and start Deron, a second year part time starter, a rookie taken in the late lottery, a first year starter, and some random center. That's a rebuild. A team with a star in Williams is NEVER going to do that unless they time traveled.

Im not say George would have been ready right from the start. Just saying its more likely they could have signed Deron because Deron might have liked the pick better. Dont think thats a stretch. George looked pretty promising from the start. Also, Bell was a disaster, that was a dumb *** signing.. Im sure that weighed on Deron too. And I dont think the Jazz even were worried that much about whether Deron would leave or not. They just didn't like him. I dont really blame them, but its besides the point. He probably got more volital after the team struggled too much. Like throwing the ball at Hayward.

Another important point is that its likely Jerry never would have quit midseason because the teams future would look better to Deron and he wouldn't have pissed Jerry off and Jerry probably would have been happier. I bet he hated losing Mathews. Mathews did everything right but be really tall. Played like a vet right from the start. Jerry loved him. Thats why he started. Jerry probably hated all the change.

 

[Stifle Tower]

Drafting George would have been even easier. He was projected to go in that ninth slot by everyone.

Are you kidding me?


Whats the problem?

Link or it didn't happen. George was NOT projected to go in the 9th spot by everyone. The picks from 9-16 were all over the place. In fact, on average, Cole Aldrich was ranked higher than George in most mocks. I will concede Hayward was ranked lower. Credit KOC for at least taking Hayward ahead of Aldrich, Babbitt, Henry, Patterson, etc.

Matthews would have cost the Jazz $9M+ due to the luxury tax. Wes was a nice player, he was coming off a good season, but struggled in the playoffs. 28 other GM's thought that deal was absurd. It was unprecedented in league history. Decision was made not to go into luxury tax territory to keep him.

AS for Deron, I agree, no one knew. You have to go on gut feeling and the Jazz a) had sat down and spoken with him several times and asked him about his intentions - Deron was evasive each time, b) had seen him openly defy a HOF coach by refusing to run plays, c) knew that his home state team of Dallas - amongst others - were lining up to make offers. You do that deal 100 times out of 100. And it was widely praised by other GM's and media outside the state.

 

[Stifle Tower]

And I dont think the Jazz even were worried that much about whether Deron would leave or not. They just didn't like him. I dont really blame them, but its besides the point. He probably got more volital after the team struggled too much. Like throwing the ball at Hayward.

Simply not true. Early in his career, Deron talked about sharing his input on FA's. He was very supportive of the Big Al acquisition. Case in point: he called Jefferson and told him he was going to make Big Al an all-star. Yes, the team struggled. Deron could have been a team leader, looked in the mirror and remembered he didn't set the world on fire his first few months as a rookie. Instead, he became a prima donna, dribbling the ball for 10-15 seconds at a time with all his crossovers instead of trying to run plays.

 

[vegas]

https://jazzfanz.com/poll.php?pollid=638&do=showresults
Hack, I know you don't remember it, but just a year ago you said Hayward and George were equal.

Also, your "core" is still a 2nd round playoff team. Timing is off. George is heading toward his Prime, Dwill is already on a sharp decline. Mathews and Milsap are great guys, but personally I'd take at least 4 other current rosters over that one.

 

[Joe Bagadonuts]

View attachment 3121
https://jazzfanz.com/poll.php?pollid=638&do=showresults
Hack, I know you don't remember it, but just a year ago you said Hayward and George were equal.

Also, your "core" is still a 2nd round playoff team. Timing is off. George is heading toward his Prime, Dwill is already on a sharp decline. Mathews and Milsap are great guys, but personally I'd take at least 4 other current rosters over that one.

Well done, vegas. Hack, it's time to admit that even if the scenario you are proposing would have been a better pathway, you wouldn't have taken it in real time.

 

[Hotdog]

View attachment 3121
https://jazzfanz.com/poll.php?pollid=638&do=showresults
Hack, I know you don't remember it, but just a year ago you said Hayward and George were equal.

Also, your "core" is still a 2nd round playoff team. Timing is off. George is heading toward his Prime, Dwill is already on a sharp decline. Mathews and Milsap are great guys, but personally I'd take at least 4 other current rosters over that one.

Well done, vegas. Hack, it's time to admit that even if the scenario you are proposing would have been a better pathway, you wouldn't have taken it in real time.

oh brother...

When the draft was happening I wanted George. I booed the Hayward pick. As time went on I started to like Hayward. I still do. But George turned out better. I would have picked George, and I would have been right. George was the better pick.

Instead of just trying to cherry pick what bits of information work best for your argument, why dont you post what I said in one of my posts from the thread.

Ive always said that I preferred George but still like Hayward and was surprised how good he turned out. My vote was only used to say Hayward is a good player. But if we want to get down to who Ive always liked better, its George. No question about.

 

[Hotdog]

Burks> Leonard and that's not really tough for me. I think Burks will have a better career..


Hayward> George , but that is tough. I'm just Happy with Hayward because he is really good too. Maybe not as good as George but he is a bad *** in his own right. I like watching a corny *** looking white dude chasing down people and blocking them from behind, Lebron style. I like that he is a lock down defender too. He is a very underrated defender in my opinion.

I wanted George at the draft but I am very happy with Hayward now.

My post from a Hayward/George thread last year.


Ive always said I liked Hayward but wanted George at the draft.

As time as gone on, and things change, (as it always does) Its become more and more clear that George is better.

As the facts change, I reserve the right to change my opinion. George and Hayward's play were closer to equal until now. George keeps growing as a player, while Hayward is stalling.

 

[Stifle Tower]

As the facts change, I reserve the right to change my opinion. George and Hayward's play were closer to equal until now. George keeps growing as a player, while Hayward is stalling.

And I'm sure KOC would probably say the same - at least in private. At the time of the pick, the two were fairly equal. Hayward seemed to have an edge due to his size (SG at SF height) and handles (had been a PG). After the draft George has not only grown as a player, but in stature as well. There's no ? he's the better player. But it's hindsight. Of all the players available at #9, less than half of us wanted George. Congrats that you were in that minority. Only honz, IIRC, wanted Hayward. And the rest of us cast votes for Aldrich, Henry, Babbitt, Patterson, etc.

So yes, lets crucify KOC for missing out on George. At the same time, let's congratulate him for at least getting Hayward instead of the other sub-par players that most of the rest of us wanted.

 

[b_line]

Back, you are nuts. Absolutely no one saw his coming from Paul George. And if you think we should have tried to keep deron, you are nuts. Would you rather have current deron or trey, kanter and favors? At this point, we could trade any of those three for a player better than current deron.

 

[fishonjazz]

And the rest of us cast votes for Aldrich, Henry, Babbitt, Patterson, etc.

whiteside

 

[Hotdog]

Back, you are nuts. Absolutely no one saw his coming from Paul George. And if you think we should have tried to keep deron, you are nuts. Would you rather have current deron or trey, kanter and favors? At this point, we could trade any of those three for a player better than current deron.

Holy ****!!!!

Does anyone on JazzFanz besides Fish and few others actually read the entire post? Or do you just read a few sentences, take what you want out of it, then argue some stupid shet

Next time, try reading. It doesn't hurt. Arguments like this can be avoided in the future.

I already said a million ****ing times that I agreed with the Deron trade at the time because it was all screwed up. Im talking about the god damn time right before that, that would have changed the scenario greatly if certain moves are made.

I swear. People just argue just to argue. A conversation starts up between two people, next thing you know you got 10 people jumping arguing about dumb *** **** out of context.

Do you think it might actually be helpful to know the entire conversation before jumping to conclusions?

 

[Bawse Dawg]

Holy ****!!!!

Does anyone on JazzFanz besides Fish and few others actually read the entire post? Or do you just read a few sentences, take what you want out of it, then argue some stupid shet

Next time, try reading. It doesn't hurt. Arguments like this can be avoided in the future.

I already said a million ****ing times that I agreed with the Deron trade at the time because it was all screwed up. Im talking about the god damn time right before that, that would have changed the scenario greatly if certain moves are made.

I swear. People just argue just to argue. A conversation starts up between two people, next thing you know you got 10 people jumping arguing about dumb *** **** out of context.

Do you think it might actually be helpful to know the entire conversation before jumping to conclusions?

TL; only read first two sentences.

 

[b_line]

Holy ****!!!!

Does anyone on JazzFanz besides Fish and few others actually read the entire post? Or do you just read a few sentences, take what you want out of it, then argue some stupid shet

Next time, try reading. It doesn't hurt. Arguments like this can be avoided in the future.

I already said a million ****ing times that I agreed with the Deron trade at the time because it was all screwed up. Im talking about the god damn time right before that, that would have changed the scenario greatly if certain moves are made.

I swear. People just argue just to argue. A conversation starts up between two people, next thing you know you got 10 people jumping arguing about dumb *** **** out of context.

Do you think it might actually be helpful to know the entire conversation before jumping to conclusions?

I did read the thread... And you kind of seemed pretty crazy in it. What else can we argue about?

All I want to do is argue!!!

Lol. I just have different opinions about the value we got out of our players. I think not trading millsap and Jefferson to preserve the cap space that allowed the gs deal was a good thing.


Sent from the JazzFanz app

 

[[size/HUGE] fixed [/size]]

Back, you are nuts. Absolutely no one saw his coming from Paul George. And if you think we should have tried to keep deron, you are nuts. Would you rather have current deron or trey, kanter and favors? At this point, we could trade any of those three for a player better than current deron.

NAOS was super-high on Paul George. Even after he was drafted NAOS started several trade threads about PG. Truth.


(NAOS was also super-high on Steph Curry coming out of college. Truth.)

 

[Doublea]

Paul George is overrated tbh.

 

[fishonjazz]

NAOS was super-high on Paul George. Even after he was drafted NAOS started several trade threads about PG. Truth.


(NAOS was also super-high on Steph Curry coming out of college. Truth.)

I only read the first few words and learned that naos is super high

 

[Darkwing Duck]

NAOS was also high on Luke Babbitt, if memory serves.