If Gobert and Mitchell both return, I'll watch the games and cheer

[FrenchJazzFa]

I do think both will stay. So we need to bring player who can inprove our defensive issue, let Don go the the scoring part. Which player can we trade for that? hard to tell. Mike is too expensive to have great value, Bodga and Clarkson have value but not high. We still have a 2 year window and we are smart. But it's a tight one. Maybe hiring a good mental coach may help?

 

[LogGrad98]

I'll watch and cheer and be so happy when we win or have a great showing. Then I'll get mad and depressed and bitch and moan when they lose. Then I'll be calling for Mitchell to be in the MVP conversation, and claiming that Rudy is the best defender the league has ever seen. Then I'll be wondering why the hell we didn't trade one or both of them. Then I'll be dancing and screaming when they come back from 20 with a strong 3rd quarter, then screaming about why the hell we didn't trade the whole team when we drop a 18 point lead in the 4th quarter.

You know, all the basic fan stuff.

 

[LogGrad98]

Mitchell and Conley for LaVine, Lonzo and LaVar.

LaVar is exactly what we need on the perimeter. After all, in juco he was better than Jordan.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

It worked out so well that now LaVine wants to leave one of the biggest markets in the NBA?

Plus Lavine/DeRozan are remarkably different as players.

Zach is a loser… I’m convinced he prefers getting his and being the star over winning. Just had his most successful season as a pro by far and wants to leave?

This all may be premature of me… and I suppose he could just want to go home to Portland but I think he may not have been cool riding shotgun to Derozan.

 

[outerspacefan]

Always thought Don and Rudy are not enough. Always thought Q overcoach so much that it would be hard for him to stop doing it overnight
Always was clear athleticism and length were lacking.
In that respect I'm not disappointed.
However, they were so darn unwatchable and boring that they tired me big time.
I will watch the games and my mood will be crappy for a couple hours when they lose, but I'd prefer some twist about these 3 guys, even if I really like them all.

 

[The Thriller]

I won’t. The last few months of the season was a chore to watch. Selfish offense and bad defense. Not to mention all the collapses. If we run it back then I’ll find something else to watch next season.

 

[Gameface]

I won’t. The last few months of the season was a chore to watch. Selfish offense and bad defense. Not to mention all the collapses. If we run it back then I’ll find something else to watch next season.

Yeah, even a 60% run it back will probably be too much for me to care.

 

[The Thriller]

Yeah, even a 60% run it back will probably be too much for me to care.

Yeah. It really became difficult to watch. It was tough honestly this entire year. Jingles wasn’t the same player as he had been. And as we know it just went downhill from there. Injuries, the offense never could get its consistent 3 ball going, and the defense just kept getting worse and worse as Gobert and whiteside were forced to play whack a mole on defense.

They weren’t entertaining at all. Not fun. And the whole point of this is to escape the chore of regular life. Watching the jazz last year felt like work.

 

[Hornacekamania]

I know I'm certainly not the brightest basketball mind here, but I'm happy either way and would like them both here.

If there is one negative that I have, I do think that they need to bring in someone who can legitimately be the leader. Rudy and DM don't have that skill set at all, and I think the team's given up on Snyder. This Avengers squad is certainly missing a Captain America.

 

[stitches]

Here's a controversial statement. Rudy and Mitchell are the most insignificant problems of this team. We can handle one player who cannot create offense for himself. We can handle one small guard who cannot defend. What we cannot handle is having defensive sieves throughout the whole roster and relying only on Gobert to cover for everybody else. What we cannot handle is stagnating offense in the clutch, the ball stopping moving, hero ball. We need our GM and FO to do their job and fix the fundamental problems of this team's construction.

We knew what some of the problems were last year and we did nothing to address them. We needed big, athletic defensive wings and instead we got a small center who can't guard, a homeless man's Gobert and another small guard as our main additions. What we needed was for Quin to force some accountability and defensive habits, maybe even sacrifice some of the regular season to develop a more versatile defensive system... but no - we continued relying on the exact same thing that had been destroyed the previous season by the first serious team we faced.

We need the FO and Quin to do their jobs!

 

[The Thriller]

Here's a controversial statement. Rudy and Mitchell are the most insignificant problems of this team. We can handle one player who cannot create offense for himself. We can handle one small guard who cannot defend. What we cannot handle is having defensive sieves throughout the whole roster and relying only on Gobert to cover for everybody else. What we cannot handle is stagnating offense in the clutch, the ball stopping moving, hero ball. We need our GM and FO to do their job and fix the fundamental problems of this team's construction.

We knew what some of the problems were last year and we did nothing to address them. We needed big, athletic defensive wings and instead we got a small center who can't guard, a homeless man's Gobert and another small guard as our main additions. What we needed was for Quin to force some accountability and defensive habits, maybe even sacrifice some of the regular season to develop a more versatile defensive system... but no - we continued relying on the exact same thing that had been destroyed the previous season by the first serious team we faced.

We need the FO and Quin to do their jobs!

Um.

Okay.

So how do we fix those problems with our cap situation, lack of draft picks, and lack of talent on the roster?

 

[stitches]

Um.

Okay.

So how do we fix those problems with our cap situation, lack of draft picks, and lack of talent on the roster?

That's a good question and I'm glad I'm not the one who has to implement any of this... They put themselves in that position and now it's time for them to get us out of it... either that or we should be looking for someone else who can do it. Those people are paid millions to do that job... so ... do it! Or if you can't, let someone else who can, have his go.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

That's a good question and I'm glad I'm not the one who has to implement any of this... They put themselves in that position and now it's time for them to get us out of it... either that or we should be looking for someone else who can do it. Those people are paid millions to do that job... so ... do it! Or if you can't, let someone else who can, have his go.

It’s something that requires a little vision… not like a prophet but someone with more vision than DL had. I basically said during his rookie year Donovan was the pg of the future… you needed a wing that was long that could pass and honestly at the time you had the guy you needed in Joe. Then you just needed 3 and D wings but we just kept rolling with Favs, Ricky, Rudy lineup…

Every pick since Donovan should have been centered on getting two way wings. But nah… centers up the ***

 

[KqWIN]

Here's a controversial statement. Rudy and Mitchell are the most insignificant problems of this team. We can handle one player who cannot create offense for himself. We can handle one small guard who cannot defend. What we cannot handle is having defensive sieves throughout the whole roster and relying only on Gobert to cover for everybody else. What we cannot handle is stagnating offense in the clutch, the ball stopping moving, hero ball. We need our GM and FO to do their job and fix the fundamental problems of this team's construction.

We knew what some of the problems were last year and we did nothing to address them. We needed big, athletic defensive wings and instead we got a small center who can't guard, a homeless man's Gobert and another small guard as our main additions. What we needed was for Quin to force some accountability and defensive habits, maybe even sacrifice some of the regular season to develop a more versatile defensive system... but no - we continued relying on the exact same thing that had been destroyed the previous season by the first serious team we faced.

We need the FO and Quin to do their jobs!

I agree. We certainly needed more from both Don and Rudy this playoffs, they played horribly as individuals and did not show any sort of leadership. But as far as our plans going forward, they are the solution and not the problem. The FO failed miserably to put a team around them that makes sense. Quin completely failed to rise up to the playoff challenge and make necessary adjustments and game plans. The gross inaction by both the FO and Quin is the weak point.

It looks like the Don-Rudy combo will end soon because of personal grievances, but I don’t think this would have been the case if they had a better team and were doing better on the floor. Their relationship never may have been good to begin, but it was always fine when they winning. No professional relationship in the NBA is going to last if expectations aren’t met on the court.

It’s important to that the Jazz are able to mend that relationship, at least to the point where they agree to play together again. Having two players of that caliber on the same team is incredibly rare. It is significantly better than having a “clean cap” or being in a position to tank. The other options are available for eternity . You can always clean your cap and start tanking. The option to have two star players in their prime on long term deals is not. I don’t think people quite understand how much more of a power position it is to have them both versus one, the other, or neither.

It may be tough to retool the roster around them, but the Jazz have already blown several good opportunities to do so and I’m sure there will be more to come. Simply acquiring Powell and Covington, who LAC got for nearly nothing, would have dramatically changed the on court product and outlook of this team. We picked up House and Juancho out of the bargain bin and they were instant contributors because we needed their skill sets so badly. If we focused on better players who actually fit with Don and Rudy it would go a long ways.

Whatever the Jazz do, I hope they hold strong and don’t cede into the interests of Don’s camp or the lure of tanking. Trading Rudy for Don’s personal interests would be rash as would trading Don for the purpose of tanking sooner.

 

[The Thriller]

That's a good question and I'm glad I'm not the one who has to implement any of this... They put themselves in that position and now it's time for them to get us out of it... either that or we should be looking for someone else who can do it. Those people are paid millions to do that job... so ... do it! Or if you can't, let someone else who can, have his go.

That’s also why GMs trade stars…

I don’t see any way out of the gigantic hole we’ve dug for ourselves.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I agree. We certainly needed more from both Don and Rudy this playoffs, they played horribly as individuals and did not show any sort of leadership. But as far as our plans going forward, they are the solution and not the problem. The FO failed miserably to put a team around them that makes sense. Quin completely failed to rise up to the playoff challenge and make necessary adjustments and game plans. The gross inaction by both the FO and Quin is the weak point.

It looks like the Don-Rudy combo will end soon because of personal grievances, but I don’t think this would have been the case if they had a better team and were doing better on the floor. Their relationship never may have been good to begin, but it was always fine when they winning. No professional relationship in the NBA is going to last if expectations aren’t met on the court.

It’s important to that the Jazz are able to mend that relationship, at least to the point where they agree to play together again. Having two players of that caliber on the same team is incredibly rare. It is significantly better than having a “clean cap” or being in a position to tank. The other options are available for eternity . You can always clean your cap and start tanking. The option to have two star players in their prime on long term deals is not. I don’t think people quite understand how much more of a power position it is to have them both versus one, the other, or neither.

It may be tough to retool the roster around them, but the Jazz have already blown several good opportunities to do so and I’m sure there will be more to come. Simply acquiring Powell and Covington, who LAC got for nearly nothing, would have dramatically changed the on court product and outlook of this team. We picked up House and Juancho out of the bargain bin and they were instant contributors because we needed their skill sets so badly. If we focused on better players who actually fit with Don and Rudy it would go a long ways.

Whatever the Jazz do, I hope they hold strong and don’t cede into the interests of Don’s camp or the lure of tanking. Trading Rudy for Don’s personal interests would be rash as would trading Don for the purpose of tanking sooner.

Yes they will be able to:

1- get two guys that don’t get along to figure it out and play selflessly

2- resist Donovan’s camp demands while CAA and Adidas work overtime to get him to a better market.

3- Retool the roster with the three and D types they need using Royce, Bogey, Mike… cuz three and D wings are everywhere. Do this while not burning up future assets.

4- address the passing deficiency as well.

5- make sure Donovan and Rudy stay healthy… cuz injuries don’t happen this event is completely unlikely. (Obvious sarcasm here… we’ve been actually quite lucky here).

 

[KqWIN]

Yes they will be able to:

1- get two guys that don’t get along to figure it out and play selflessly

2- resist Donovan’s camp demands while CAA and Adidas work overtime to get him to a better market.

3- Retool the roster with the three and D types they need using Royce, Bogey, Mike… cuz three and D wings are everywhere. Do this while not burning up future assets.

4- address the passing deficiency as well.

5- make sure Donovan and Rudy stay healthy… cuz injuries don’t happen this event is completely unlikely. (Obvious sarcasm here… we’ve been actually quite lucky here).

You make it sound like it's mission impossible to build around two star players in their primes locked onto long term deals. I don't think it's easy, but I also don't think it's easy to get back to this point where you have both. The tanking promised land is always there, but it doesn't guarantee anything. I could very easily list out all the potential roadblocks in a tanking situation. But I get it...there's no expectations when you're tanking, so anything and everything is good and that's a comfortable spot to be in.

Personally, I think about all the failures of the FO and Quin and think that if we could just be a little bit better, we'd be in a much better spot. I don't think it's a situation where they tried their best and still failed. I think it's a situation where they failed and refused to acknowledge they failed and did the same thing over and over. Our best chances are probably gone, they have squandered several opportunities and it only gets tougher to make these moves. But the opportunity to win starts and ends with Don+Rudy. If you have those two and they want to play for your team, you do your best to win.

 

[KqWIN]

It would also be nice to see the FO have a ****ing spine in any kind of negotiation. Like we're really thinking about a hypothetical situation where the Knicks get the #4 pick which they don't own and draft Jaden Ivey who becomes so good that they aren't motivated to get Don anymore? Instead of doing the mental gymnastics and engineering such crazy negative scenarios, maybe think about making some non-horrific moves and ponder what that mean for this other team. Even as simple as having a real coach who will implement real defensive principles.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

You make it sound like it's mission impossible to build around two star players in their primes locked onto long term deals. I don't think it's easy, but I also don't think it's easy to get back to this point where you have both. The tanking promised land is always there, but it doesn't guarantee anything. I could very easily list out all the potential roadblocks in a tanking situation. But I get it...there's no expectations when you're tanking, so anything and everything is good and that's a comfortable spot to be in.

Personally, I think about all the failures of the FO and Quin and think that if we could just be a little bit better, we'd be in a much better spot. I don't think it's a situation where they tried their best and still failed. I think it's a situation where they failed and refused to acknowledge they failed and did the same thing over and over. Our best chances are probably gone, they have squandered several opportunities and it only gets tougher to make these moves. But the opportunity to win starts and ends with Don+Rudy. If you have those two and they want to play for your team, you do your best to win.

You act like our stars flaws don’t matter… they totally do.

You act like we haven’t tried to get wings… we have… we’ve heard the same lines every offseason.

You act like we get Norman Powell and RoCo and it fixes stuff… it does but it’s not enough.

You act like we can always tank… and while we can always tank by being bad we can’t always sell off our pieces to give that tank an actual shot at working.

You act like guys values don’t change… they can. It could be injury or change in market or need… it could be change in overall mood of the teams… this is an extreme sellers market.

What if Boston retools an extra year around KG and Pierce… they don’t go to 3+ conference finals.

I know I know what about Toronto… well the sold a star for an mvp candidate in the most unique situation that may not happen again. They also had stuff to sell like a top 10 pick and a team that wouldn’t sell to the highest bidder because they didn’t want to send him to the Lakers.

These are all fixable things if you have 2-3 years of runway and assets or young players or cap space to help smooth the cracks… we are negative on all three of those… but yeah let’s see if we can win that play in next year.

 

[KqWIN]

You act like our stars flaws don’t matter… they totally do.

You act like we haven’t tried to get wings… we have… we’ve heard the same lines every offseason.

You act like we get Norman Powell and RoCo and it fixes stuff… it does but it’s not enough.

You act like we can always tank… and while we can always tank by being bad we can’t always sell off our pieces to give that tank an actual shot at working.

You act like guys values don’t change… they can. It could be injury or change in market or need… it could be change in overall mood of the teams… this is an extreme sellers market.

What if Boston retools an extra year around KG and Pierce… they don’t go to 3+ conference finals.

I know I know what about Toronto… well the sold a star for an mvp candidate in the most unique situation that may not happen again. They also had stuff to sell like a top 10 pick and a team that wouldn’t sell to the highest bidder because they didn’t want to send him to the Lakers.

These are all fixable things if you have 2-3 years of runway and assets or young players or cap space to help smooth the cracks… we are negative on all three of those… but yeah let’s see if we can win that play in next year.

Like I said, I can VERY easily pick apart all the things that can go wrong with tanking. But I don’t think I need to make up incredibly odd scenarios that inform my option.

Don and Rudy are not flawless, but every team has flaws. You don’t have to be perfect to win a championship, and the Jazz don’t need to execute perfectly to compete for a title. I think the Jazz have been far from perfect and far from average as well. They’ve don’t a horrific job at building around their two stars….and despite all of that, I’m still of the option that they should have been able to compete with all the teams remaining. I don’t look at this team and feel like they played their best.

If the Jazz were just a little bit better, be it with coaching, drafting, trades, signings they would be a much better team. I’m not looking at pie in the sky scenarios. I’m looking at simply being average and making the obvious moves. And no…I do not believe the Jazz tried to make these moves. If Tony Jones says they were looking for a wing, that’s not good enough for me to say “they tried everything “ when the exact types of players we needed are being traded around for free.

I’d be hypocrite to say that the Jazz have made terrible moves, but also say that Don-Rudy has run its course. Like stitches said, Don-Rudy are not the weakness of this team. They are the cornerstones. Do better around them.

I know the situation between Don and Rudy is tenuous. They aren’t perfect on or off the court. But if we’re not willing to even try to win with two star players in their prime on long term deals…what’s the point? It’s extremely difficult to be in this position and I won’t take it for granted. As long as they’re here, I’d do my best to win with them.