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Is LeBron the GOAT?

str8line

str8line

Well-Known Member
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2019 Award Winner
Has my wife blown Santa Clause?

No and no. (Unless you count that time I had on a Santa hat.)


From the interwebz:

Jordan vs LeBron

Updated after Lebrons 14th season. Michael Jordan has:
•3 more rings
•3 more final mvps
•1 more DPOY
•1 more season MVP
•9 more scoring titles
•3 more steals leader
•3 more all defensive team selections
•4000 more points / bron moved past him in playoff points, but it took him longer.
•800 more steals
•Beat 20 50+ win teams in the playoffs (Lebron only defeated 10)
•Jordan never averaged less than 40% Field Goal in the finals
Lebron did it twice
•6/6 (never allowed a game 7)
•Lebron had much more offensive help, example:
Jordan never had a teammate average more than 22 points in the finals.. In fact, Mj is Only player in NBA history to lead a team to the championship with only one teammate averaging double figures in scoring
* In the Bulls’ 1997 playoff run, Scottie Pippen averaged 19 points per game on 42% shooting. All other teammates of Jordan averaged under 8 points per game
Kyrie averaged over 28 and DWade averaged more than 26
•MJ never ever had a finals meltdown like Lebron in 2011 against the Mavs
•MJ had more points in the playoffs in less games..
MJ accomplished all of this in 13 seasons
Lebron after his 14th season, is still chasing the “ghost (GOAT) that played in Chicago”
•Michael Jordan in the playoffs has put up atleast 40ppg, 5rpg, 5apg in 6 different playoff series. Along with an average of about 55% shooting, 3spg and 2bpg.
(86 vs bos, 89 vs cavs, 90 vs philly, 92 vs Miami, 93 vs Phoenix, 88 vs cavs) Jordan won every one of those matchups except for the 1986 matchup vs the celtics.
•Jordan in 88-89 averaged 32ppg, 8apg, 8rpg, 3spg off 54% shooting. LeBron has never even came close to this stat line.
•in 87 thru 92, MJ averaged 5 straight seasons of atleast 51% FG shooting. LeBron has never done this.
•the lowest FT% MJ ever shot in a season was 78%. Lebrons highest in a season ever is 78%.
•MJ has a higher playoff FG% of 48.7% to Lebrons 48.3%
•MJ has a higher playoff player efficiency rating of 28.6 to Lebrons 27.3.
•MJ shoots a higher playoff 3 point percentage of 33.2% to Lebrons 32.9%
•LeBron James has scored 30 points, 416 times in 1,117 games.
Michael Jordan did it 562 times in 1,072 games.
Jordan won 6 championships without losing a final in 1,072 games and LeBron in 1,117 games has lost 5 times and has only won 3 times (updated 2018)
•MJ also shocked the league by being the first (and only) player to have 100 blocks and 200 steals in the same season, then turned around and did it again the next year..
•Mj also has more career blocks (893) than Lebron James (853) despite playing in 22 LESS career games and being the smaller guy.
Also, MJ averaged 1.6 blocks per game in the 1987-88 season which is absolutely bonkers for a 6’6″ shooting guard.
Seriously this list can keep going. This isn’t even a debate. Mj is the GOAT.
MIchael Jordan:
•NBA record 5 playoffs series’ averaging atleast 40ppg
•Only player in history to lead league in scoring and win DPOY
•Highest scoring average, points per game, in any championship series:
41.0 vs. Phoenix Suns, 1993 NBA Finals
•Only rookie in NBA history to lead his team in four statistics (1984–85)
•Only player in NBA history to lead the league in scoring, win Most Valuable Player, and Defensive Player of the Year in the same season (1987–88)
•Only player in history to average at least 30pts 6reb 5assists And 2 steals per game AND HE DID IT 7 TIMES.
•Only player in NBA history to win Rookie of the Year (1984–85), Defensive Player of the Year (1987–88), NBA MVP (1987–88, 1990–91, 1991–92, 1995–96, 1997–98), All-Star MVP (1988, 1996, 1998), and Finals MVP (1991, 1992, 1993, 1996, 1997, 1998)
•Only player in NBA history to lead the league in scoring and win the NBA championship MORE THAN ONCE in the same season
* He did this SIX TIMES!! (1990–91, 1991–92, 1992–93, 1995–96, 1996–97, 1997–98)
•One of two players in NBA history to score 3,000 points in a season: 3,041 points scored in 82 games played (37.1 ppg) (1986–87)
* Wilt Chamberlain is the only other player to achieve this.
•MJ is also the only player in NBA history to score over 40 points at age 40, and he did it twice!
•In 1988, MJ earned: Dunk Champ, All Star Game MVP, NBA Scoring Title, League MVP and Defensive Player of the Year.
Michael in only ELEVEN complete seasons with the Bulls:
-10 scoring titles,
-Won Defensive Player of the Year,
-9 times all defensive team,
-9time All NBA,
-5 league MVPs
-6 finals MVPs

All 11 seasons. MJ has done in 11 seasons things Lebron hasn’t done and won’t do in his whole career…

Remind me again...who is the GOAT?
 
I agree. Plus Jordan never made flopping such a huge part of his game. Heck I do not even remember if he ever flopped.
 
It's hard to compare stats and achievements from different eras. I think Lebron has a greater effect on a team, and is better able to carry a team. His size, strength, and motor make him the toughest assignment the NBA has seen, when he's closing out games.
 
str8line said:
Has my wife blown Santa Clause?

No and no. (Unless you count that time I had on a Santa hat.)


From the interwebz:

Jordan vs LeBron

Updated after Lebrons 14th season. Michael Jordan has:
•3 more rings
•3 more final mvps
•1 more DPOY
•1 more season MVP
•9 more scoring titles
•3 more steals leader
•3 more all defensive team selections
•4000 more points / bron moved past him in playoff points, but it took him longer.
•800 more steals
•Beat 20 50+ win teams in the playoffs (Lebron only defeated 10)
•Jordan never averaged less than 40% Field Goal in the finals
Lebron did it twice
•6/6 (never allowed a game 7)
•Lebron had much more offensive help, example:
Jordan never had a teammate average more than 22 points in the finals.. In fact, Mj is Only player in NBA history to lead a team to the championship with only one teammate averaging double figures in scoring
* In the Bulls’ 1997 playoff run, Scottie Pippen averaged 19 points per game on 42% shooting. All other teammates of Jordan averaged under 8 points per game
Kyrie averaged over 28 and DWade averaged more than 26
•MJ never ever had a finals meltdown like Lebron in 2011 against the Mavs
•MJ had more points in the playoffs in less games..
MJ accomplished all of this in 13 seasons
Lebron after his 14th season, is still chasing the “ghost (GOAT) that played in Chicago”
•Michael Jordan in the playoffs has put up atleast 40ppg, 5rpg, 5apg in 6 different playoff series. Along with an average of about 55% shooting, 3spg and 2bpg.
(86 vs bos, 89 vs cavs, 90 vs philly, 92 vs Miami, 93 vs Phoenix, 88 vs cavs) Jordan won every one of those matchups except for the 1986 matchup vs the celtics.
•Jordan in 88-89 averaged 32ppg, 8apg, 8rpg, 3spg off 54% shooting. LeBron has never even came close to this stat line.
•in 87 thru 92, MJ averaged 5 straight seasons of atleast 51% FG shooting. LeBron has never done this.
•the lowest FT% MJ ever shot in a season was 78%. Lebrons highest in a season ever is 78%.
•MJ has a higher playoff FG% of 48.7% to Lebrons 48.3%
•MJ has a higher playoff player efficiency rating of 28.6 to Lebrons 27.3.
•MJ shoots a higher playoff 3 point percentage of 33.2% to Lebrons 32.9%
•LeBron James has scored 30 points, 416 times in 1,117 games.
Michael Jordan did it 562 times in 1,072 games.
Jordan won 6 championships without losing a final in 1,072 games and LeBron in 1,117 games has lost 5 times and has only won 3 times (updated 2018)
•MJ also shocked the league by being the first (and only) player to have 100 blocks and 200 steals in the same season, then turned around and did it again the next year..
•Mj also has more career blocks (893) than Lebron James (853) despite playing in 22 LESS career games and being the smaller guy.
Also, MJ averaged 1.6 blocks per game in the 1987-88 season which is absolutely bonkers for a 6’6″ shooting guard.
Seriously this list can keep going. This isn’t even a debate. Mj is the GOAT.
MIchael Jordan:
•NBA record 5 playoffs series’ averaging atleast 40ppg
•Only player in history to lead league in scoring and win DPOY
•Highest scoring average, points per game, in any championship series:
41.0 vs. Phoenix Suns, 1993 NBA Finals
•Only rookie in NBA history to lead his team in four statistics (1984–85)
•Only player in NBA history to lead the league in scoring, win Most Valuable Player, and Defensive Player of the Year in the same season (1987–88)
•Only player in history to average at least 30pts 6reb 5assists And 2 steals per game AND HE DID IT 7 TIMES.
•Only player in NBA history to win Rookie of the Year (1984–85), Defensive Player of the Year (1987–88), NBA MVP (1987–88, 1990–91, 1991–92, 1995–96, 1997–98), All-Star MVP (1988, 1996, 1998), and Finals MVP (1991, 1992, 1993, 1996, 1997, 1998)
•Only player in NBA history to lead the league in scoring and win the NBA championship MORE THAN ONCE in the same season
* He did this SIX TIMES!! (1990–91, 1991–92, 1992–93, 1995–96, 1996–97, 1997–98)
•One of two players in NBA history to score 3,000 points in a season: 3,041 points scored in 82 games played (37.1 ppg) (1986–87)
* Wilt Chamberlain is the only other player to achieve this.
•MJ is also the only player in NBA history to score over 40 points at age 40, and he did it twice!
•In 1988, MJ earned: Dunk Champ, All Star Game MVP, NBA Scoring Title, League MVP and Defensive Player of the Year.
Michael in only ELEVEN complete seasons with the Bulls:
-10 scoring titles,
-Won Defensive Player of the Year,
-9 times all defensive team,
-9time All NBA,
-5 league MVPs
-6 finals MVPs

All 11 seasons. MJ has done in 11 seasons things Lebron hasn’t done and won’t do in his whole career…

Remind me again...who is the GOAT?
Click to expand...

Seems like you cherry picked things in favor of mj. I’m pretty sure there are things that favor Lebron as well. You seem to have omitted those things.

Btw, Rodman? Hall of fame. Pippen? Hall of fame. Phil Jackson? Hall of fame. So for your portion about supporting cast you should probably mention that stuff. (Kukoc, Kerr, Horace Grant, were all pretty awesome too and I’m sure I’m missing someone)
 
I think Jordan is still number 1 but it’s damn close and by the time Lebron is done he has a good chance of passing mj. Longetivity does count at least a little.
 
fishonjazz said:
Seems like you cherry picked things in favor of mj. I’m pretty sure there are things that favor Lebron as well. You seem to have omitted those things.

Btw, Rodman? Hall of fame. Pippen? Hall of fame. Phil Jackson? Hall of fame. So for your portion about supporting cast you should probably mention that stuff. (Kukoc, Kerr, Horace Grant, were all pretty awesome too and I’m sure I’m missing someone)
Click to expand...


I didn't make the list. As I mentioned I got it from the interwebz. I just thought it was cool and reminded me of MJ's incredible career and competitiveness.

LeBron is amazing too. One can make an argument for him but I have Jordan above him still.
 
So lebron led the league in minutes per game this season (and last season as well) and also played in all 82 games this season. pretty crazy.
Oh and btw, this season he is averaging more points per game(27.5), rebounds per game(8.6), assists per game(9.1), PER (28.6), and better field goal and 3 point and efg percentages than his career averages.
He is averaging career highs in assists and rebounds.
after 15 regular seasons in the nba and countless playoff games and all those miles on his body, at 33 years old he might be the best version of himself yet. Dude just keeps working on his game and improving year after year.
The nba can give mvp awards to curry (twice), westbrook, harden, durant, rose, nash, kobe, and Dirk if they want to but imo lebron has been the best player in the nba for about 13 years in a row now. He should get all teh mvp's imo.
 
fishonjazz said:
So lebron led the league in minutes per game this season (and last season as well) and also played in all 82 games this season. pretty crazy.
Oh and btw, this season he is averaging more points per game(27.5), rebounds per game(8.6), assists per game(9.1), PER (28.6), and better field goal and 3 point and efg percentages than his career averages.
He is averaging career highs in assists and rebounds.
after 15 regular seasons in the nba and countless playoff games and all those miles on his body, at 33 years old he might be the best version of himself yet. Dude just keeps working on his game and improving year after year.
The nba can give mvp awards to curry (twice), westbrook, harden, durant, rose, nash, kobe, and Dirk if they want to but imo lebron has been the best player in the nba for about 13 years in a row now. He should get all teh mvp's imo.
Click to expand...
Hard to argue against this.
 
I want him to win it all this year. If he can beat gs with this team... he will be the goat with no doubt


Sent from my iPhone using JazzFanz
 
fishonjazz said:
The nba can give mvp awards to curry (twice), westbrook, harden, durant, rose, nash, kobe, and Dirk if they want to but imo lebron has been the best player in the nba for about 13 years in a row now. He should get all teh mvp's imo.
Click to expand...

This is a good point but the same argument should be said of Jordan. Malone and others should never have got the MVP over Jordan. Jordan was easily the MVP every year he was with Chicago except his rookie year.

So lebron led the league in minutes per game this season (and last season as well) and also played in all 82 games this season. pretty crazy.
Click to expand...

Jordan had 9 seasons of 82 games. Jordan played 8 seasons with over 3100 minutes for the year, Lebron has had 4.
 
Last edited:
How many finals would Lebron have made it to if he wasnt playing in the Leastern Conference for his career?

Its pretty easy to say he would only have made it 3 times at best. But its pretty easy to argue that the years he won the Finals he might not have made it to the finals if he had a harder path.

3 or less finals appearances makes him look much worse. He has had the benefit of playing in a crappy conference with an easy path to the finals every year.

Lebron is the current greatest player but he is in a group of a couple players(Kareem and Wilt) for a distant 2nd for GOAT. Lebron best year in WS was 17th. Jordan had 3 seasons better than that.
 
Archie Moses said:
LeBron is the greatest basketball specimen that's ever existed.
Click to expand...

I’m an old Jordan fan but I agree with this notion. And we should also remember one of the most emphasized things about Jordan when he was active. He was considered an athletic specimen amongst most sports. Now Lebron James’ level of athletic capability is cleary something else. Hence I agree with Archie Moses.
 
But if you want to talk about the GOAT, Jordan is not by just stats and winnings but by common sense the best player I’ve ever witnessed.
 
addictionary said:
But if you want to talk about the GOAT, Jordan is not by just stats and winnings but by common sense the best player I’ve ever witnessed.
Click to expand...

Common sense is a meaningless metric. For example, my common sense says that Lebron is the best player I've seen, regardless of what stats say.
 
Siro said:
Common sense is a meaningless metric. For example, my common sense says that Lebron is the best player I've seen, regardless of what stats say.
Click to expand...

Obviously from your statement you lack common sense according to my common sense. So you need to first have common sense to have valid common sense and that needs to be confirmed by someone with proven common sense and only my common sense can be the judge of that for me.
 
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