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Jazz and Knicks discussing Donovan Mitchell trade per Shams Charania and Tony Jones

I honestly dont think either team has much leverage over the other at this point. It's pretty even.

What happens if the Knicks start out super good and their young guys all markedly improve? They are going to feel less of a desire to get a deal done.

What if Utah starts the season and is unexpectedly winning games at a play-in level rate? Are they really willing to hold Mitchell on the roster at the expense of the tank?

Different scenarios could play out if this gets held to the start of the season that could swing the leverage either way.
 
Saint Cy of JFC said:
Donovan actively lost the Jazz games last year with his 4th quarter play. Hopefully he does that in a NYK uniform.
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He did last year but before that the rest of his career he was solid. I would assume the team culture and toxic environment was leading to a lot of these issues. I assume a new coach and new situation things will go back to normal for him somewhat. He also might mature some like most players do later. But he was a big part of the team turning toxic so that could easily happen again if he hasnt matured at all.
 
If the Knicks want to get stingy we can simply keep Donovan.

Then we can laugh at the Knicks as they try to eclipse their 37 wins from last season and fail.
 
kabenac said:
If the Knicks want to get stingy we can simply keep Donovan.

Then we can laugh at the Knicks as they try to eclipse their 37 wins from last season and fail.
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And we can all laugh for accidentally winning as many games trying to bad.

And cry. I refuse to believe our management is as incredibly bad as the Knicks’ is. And by that I mean being content with existing in NBA purgatory by being a treadmill team.
 
Saint Cy of JFC said:
  1. Lebron
  2. Durant
  3. Giannis
  4. Jokic
  5. Embiid
  6. Trae Young
  7. Dejounte Murray
  8. Anthony Edwards
  9. Bradley Beal
  10. Paul George
  11. Kawhi Leonard
  12. Damian Lillard
  13. Steph Curry
  14. Chris Paul
  15. Devin Booker
  16. Jayson Tatum
  17. Jimmy Butler
  18. James Harden
  19. Kyrie Irving
  20. LaMelo Ball (possibly)
  21. Ja Morant
  22. Luka Doncic
  23. Rudy Gobert
  24. Karl Anthony Towns
  25. Zion Williamson
  26. Brandon Ingram
  27. Anthony Davis
  28. Shai Gilgeous Alexander
  29. DeMar Derozan
  30. Zach Lavine
  31. Jaylen Brown
  32. Jamal Murray
  33. Donovan Mitchell
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Guys who I wouldn’t take over Mitchell or at least it’s a conversation:

Dejounte Murray
Bradley Beal
Damian Lillard
Chris Paul
Jimmy Butler
Kyrie Irving
James Harden
LaMelo Ball
Karl-Anthony Towns
Anthony Edwards
DeMar DeRozan
Shai Gilgeous-Alexander
Zach LaVine
Jamal Murray

I think Donovan is in the top-20.
 
Elizah Huge said:
Guys who I wouldn’t take over Mitchell or at least it’s a conversation:

Dejounte Murray
Bradley Beal
Damian Lillard
Chris Paul
Jimmy Butler
Kyrie Irving
James Harden
LaMelo Ball
Karl-Anthony Towns
Anthony Edwards
DeMar DeRozan
Shai Gilgeous-Alexander
Zach LaVine
Jamal Murray

I think Donovan is in the top-20.
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I can give you Ball and Murray. Saying dudes like Kyrie/Paul/Beal/Lillard/Harden/KAT/Butler arent better is absurd tho.

Everyone else is way more accomplished and did more with less. Mitchell was gifted a #1 option role since his rookie year. For instance, if you gave Murray that same role, you'd see much better play from Murray.
 
Ron Mexico said:
He did last year but before that the rest of his career he was solid. I would assume the team culture and toxic environment was leading to a lot of these issues. I assume a new coach and new situation things will go back to normal for him somewhat. He also might mature some like most players do later. But he was a big part of the team turning toxic so that could easily happen again if he hasnt matured at all.
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I would put it more on being a 6'1 scoring guard with limited passing versatility and no defensive game.
 
I just hope we can get this done and move some of our other good veterans before the season starts so that we can do a proper tank next season. The draft is loaded at the top next year, and we need to make sure we lose enough games to get a top 5 pick.
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
Not really… I said they are 50-50 to be a playoff team. Even hitting as a 4 seed would be barely missing the play in… it might be 2-3 games difference between 4/5 and 7. If you think that is talking in speaking in absolutes then I’m not sure we can talk about much here without 400 caveats.
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Not really? You used the phrase “best-case scenario.” That’s about as absolute as you get.
 
If Donovan was a clear cut top 20 player, we would be getting much stronger non-Knick offers for Mitchell.

He isn't.

He's a top 15 scorer, no doubt. He is not a top 20 player.
 
Jingled said:
I just hope we can get this done and move some of our other good veterans before the season starts so that we can do a proper tank next season. The draft is loaded at the top next year, and we need to make sure we lose enough games to get a top 5 pick.
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We also need to try and get another lottery pick for 2023, which is why the Knicks 2023 unprotected is crucial.
 
Saint Cy of JFC said:
I would put it more on being a 6'1 scoring guard with limited passing versatility and no defensive game.
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Those are factors, but they didnt effect him before last season. He was really solid in closing games for a long time. He was an elite 4th quarter player in the regular season and playoffs besides last year.

edit: well his defense has sucked since he stopped playing that after SL his first year.
 
Keefe said:
Not really? You used the phrase “best-case scenario.” That’s about as absolute as you get.
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Do you disagree? I mean saying best case scenario they are like a little better than the play in… you are like… “they were the 4 seed” which is a little better than a play in team… from now on we need to assume that every team can go 82-0 or 0-82 cuz “anything” can happen.

You say that they missed the playoffs and their picks are so much more valuable but I can’t assume they won’t be better than teams like Philly, Boston, Miami, Milwaukee… and are at best on par with Chicago, Toronto, Atlanta, Cavs… all who finished well ahead of them.

I will refrain from making such bold absolutes in the future… every teams beat case scenario is 82-0 and 4,4,4,4…
 
Both fanbases are claiming their respective teams have the upper hand when it comes to leverage, but here’s the thing, NYK has a lot more pressure and urgency to be good than we do to be bad. Plus it’s fairly easy to be bad even if you have an all-star on your team, if you really want to be. We’d still need to trade a few of our vets, but we could easily do that and then we just let Donovan average 35 a night on our way 28 wins. That’s a fairly easy path we can take, and we lose absolutely no leverage in that scenario.

Honestly, the only scenario that I can see that diminishes our leverage would be if a couple A-List players suddenly become available. This makes me think that it’s even funnier looking at NYK’s situation as there’s two stars currently on the market, but they can’t even entertain the idea of the bigger star because he’s currently on their in-state rival.
 
Elizah Huge said:
Donovan may opt out in 2025 if he goes to Miami too you never know. Especially when Butler is past his prime.
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I could see both Mitchell and Jaylen Brown opting out at about the same time and joining Bam in Miami. They're pretty close friends. Just because Donovan goes to NYK doesn't mean he's going to stay there if things don't go well.
Saint Cy of JFC said:
  1. Lebron
  2. Durant
  3. Giannis
  4. Jokic
  5. Embiid
  6. Trae Young
  7. Dejounte Murray
  8. Anthony Edwards
  9. Bradley Beal
  10. Paul George
  11. Kawhi Leonard
  12. Damian Lillard
  13. Steph Curry
  14. Chris Paul
  15. Devin Booker
  16. Jayson Tatum
  17. Jimmy Butler
  18. James Harden
  19. Kyrie Irving
  20. LaMelo Ball (possibly)
  21. Ja Morant
  22. Luka Doncic
  23. Rudy Gobert
  24. Karl Anthony Towns
  25. Zion Williamson
  26. Brandon Ingram
  27. Anthony Davis
  28. Shai Gilgeous Alexander
  29. DeMar Derozan
  30. Zach Lavine
  31. Jaylen Brown
  32. Jamal Murray
  33. Donovan Mitchell

And no, this is not an ordered list. I would put Mitchell firmly in the 28-32 range. And there are a lot of players in the 30-40 range who will be coming for top 30 spots. Mitchell is in danger of falling further out when he takes the Knicks to a 10th seed play-in 1 and out game.

Just because I disagree with your incredibly uninformed opinion does not make me a contrarian. I'm sure many would agree with me. Defense is a thing. Crazy how when you disagree with people they resort to name calling and insults. I would never.

Failed self styled twitter analyst? WTF does that even mean. I have a twitter and I tweet my NBA thoughts. Didnt know I was failing. If follower count is how you measure "success" (who gives a ****) then you have to be overwhelmingly positive and ignorant to get over 1K followers from Jazz twitter.
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Elizah Huge said:
Guys who I wouldn’t take over Mitchell or at least it’s a conversation:

Dejounte Murray
Bradley Beal
Damian Lillard
Chris Paul
Jimmy Butler
Kyrie Irving
James Harden
LaMelo Ball
Karl-Anthony Towns
Anthony Edwards
DeMar DeRozan
Shai Gilgeous-Alexander
Zach LaVine
Jamal Murray

I think Donovan is in the top-20.
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Mitchell is in the top 15-20 range. His value is similar to Kyrie when Kyrie actually plays. Dame had a down year last year, so that comparison should be taken out.
 
Saint Cy of JFC said:
I can give you Ball and Murray. Saying dudes like Kyrie/Paul/Beal/Lillard/Harden/KAT/Butler arent better is absurd tho.

Everyone else is way more accomplished and did more with less. Mitchell was gifted a #1 option role since his rookie year. For instance, if you gave Murray that same role, you'd see much better play from Murray.
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Chris Paul right now is a better player than Donovan Mitchell?
 
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