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Jazz and the big man strategy

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zman1527

Well-Known Member
The Jazz have always (at least since Malone) been a team that focused on the bigs: Malone-Eaton, Malone-Ostertag (okay, a weak one there), Boozer-Memo, now Al-Sap. The offense has always centered on those guys.

We look set to continue that ad infinitum with Favors and Kanter. But then I look around at the teams doing well in the playoffs, and none of the real successes do that, none of the final four. Look at the Lakers, with two of the top 5 bigs in the league get bounced in the second round, nearly the first.

Are Favor + Kanter fools gold? Wrong approach for the modern NBA? If not, why are not the Lakers in the finals?
 
You're right. Every team in the final four had people who can create their own shot:

Spurs: Parker and Ginobili, and Duncan to a limited degree
Celts: Pierce, Rondo, and Garnett
Heat: LBJ and Wade
OKC: Durant, Harden, and Westbrook

I think Hayward and Burks are capable of this and will keep improving.
 
zman1527 said:
Wrong approach for the modern NBA? If not, why are not the Lakers in the finals?
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Poorly balanced team with an inefficient Kobe negating Pau's strengths.

I don't really believe there's any single formula that will get you to the top. You just have to have a good team. Two very good bigs are generally helpful if they complement each other and the rest of the team well.
 
Not a big fan of "formula" trends. Correlation is not causation and we need to focus on getting talent that has an impact and fitting it within a strong team concept. There are a lot of ways to do that.
 
infection said:
Not a big fan of "formula" trends. Correlation is not causation and we need to focus on getting talent that has an impact and fitting it within a strong team concept. There are a lot of ways to do that.
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Yes. Championship teams set trends, not follow them.
 
zman1527 said:
Are Favor + Kanter fools gold? Wrong approach for the modern NBA? If not, why are not the Lakers in the finals?
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Remember the 2010 NBA Finals? The Lakers didn't defeat the Celtics in Game 7 because Kobe shot 6-24. Pau and Bynum won LA that game - just as LA won 2 championships after they acquired Pau Gasol after winning zero titles in the span where they lacked an interior threat since trading Shaq.

I don't think it's imperative to have a dominant low-post scorer if you have multiple perimeter threats - but you must have a bigman who can rebound and defend the paint. Favors has shown the potential to do that.
 
Look at the other side of the coin. Defense is a bigger part of the final 4 teams. OKC has bigs who play D. So I look forward to what our bigs will do with guarding the paint.
 
vslice02 said:
Remember the 2010 NBA Finals? The Lakers didn't defeat the Celtics in Game 7 because Kobe shot 6-24. Pau and Bynum won LA that game - just as LA won 2 championships after they acquired Pau Gasol after winning zero titles in the span where they lacked an interior threat since trading Shaq.

I don't think it's imperative to have a dominant low-post scorer if you have multiple perimeter threats - but you must have a bigman who can rebound and defend the paint. Favors has shown the potential to do that.
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Thanks for bringing this up. You need a strong lowpost presence in order to compete at the highest level.
 
Championship teams most often have strong interior defense and rebounding, thereby controlling the paint and forcing other teams into lower percentage shots. Teams with a dominant post presence also score higher-percentage shots and create space for shooters. The approach of building around quality bigs is the right approach. Of course, you've also got to have a player who is a dominant scorer out on the floor and/or a multi-dimensional guard or wing who can get into the paint and set up buckets for other players.

Detroit Pistons: Interior defense (Rasheed Wallace, Ben Wallace), multi-dimensional guard (Chauncey Billups)
LA Lakers: Interior defense (Shaq, then Bynum & Gasol), multi-dimensional guard (Kobe Bryant)
Boston Celtics: Interior defense (Garnett, Kendrick Perkins), multi-dimensional wing (Pierce, then Rondo)
San Antonio Spurs: Interior defense (Duncan), multi-dimensional guards (Parker, Ginobli)
Miami Heat: Interior defense (Shaq and Haslem), multi-dimensional guard (Wade)
Dallas Mavs: Interior defense (Chandler), multi-dimensional guards (Terry and Barea)

The reason the Thunder beat the Spurs is due to their superior interior defense and defensive rebounding more than anything. The Spurs couldn't keep the Thunder from getting buckets or big rebounds. I think this is why in a 7-game series, the Thunder will ultimately beat the Heat. The Heat just don't have the interior D and rebounding to win a championship. Whereas the Thunder have Ibaka, Perkins and Collison. Then they have Durant, Harden and Westbrook to match Miami's scoring. Miami is going to have to be efficient offensively to even stay in the games with the Thunder, and the Heat are going to have to try to force turnovers to make up for a deficit on the boards.

Lebron had to dial in incredible shooting performances to even keep the Heat in that series with the Celtics.

The way the Jazz are setting themselves up with Favors and Kanter is ideal for interior defense and rebounding. Now they need scoring in the backcourt and a wing who can penetrate and create off the dribble. Lillard ought to fit nicely if we can get him.
 
Bosh will be key in OKC vs Miami match up.

Durant/LeBron and Westbrook/Wade will cancel each other out. Bosh and his ability to hit from just inside the 3pt line (and Haslem to an extent as well) will really stretch Ibaka & Perkins.
 
Hotttnickkk said:
Bosh will be key in OKC vs Miami match up.

Durant/LeBron and Westbrook/Wade will cancel each other out. Bosh and his ability to hit from just inside the 3pt line (and Haslem to an extent as well) will really stretch Ibaka & Perkins.
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And if Miami continues to start Battier over Bosh, then I can see that lineup causing OKC's starters problems. It's a small lineup, but OKC's bigs can't score well anyway, and it could force Ibaka out of the paint with how stretched the floor would be.

Then Bosh comes off the bench to match Harden's scoring.

It'll be an interesting series, for sure.
 
spycam1 said:
And if Miami continues to start Battier over Bosh, then I can see that lineup causing OKC's starters problems. It's a small lineup, but OKC's bigs can't score well anyway, and it could force Ibaka out of the paint with how stretched the floor would be.

Then Bosh comes off the bench to match Harden's scoring.

It'll be an interesting series, for sure.
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Also it'll be a series between Good vs Evil (Saintly OKC vs Spoiled Heats).
 
I completely agree with all the posts regarding interior D and rebounding. That seems to be a key to being a top team. Favors and Kanter look like they can be a great duo there.

But what about the offense? Few if any of those teams focused offense on the bigs the way the Jazz do and look like they are going to continue to do. Does that worry you? It does me. How many plays were called for Hayward when Sap and Al were in the game? I am just concerned that it seems like we are going to have the same approach as the last 20 years and pound it into the post all the time while the wings are just the 3rd or 4th option. I guess only the next several years will tell the tale.
 
our future should be build around enes kanter and derrick favors: they have the potential to be the best big man duo in the league in two or three years. hayward will be our point-forward and burks a solid scorer and slasher, if all pains out. we need a star caliber point guard that can lead a team and distribute the ball. throw in rajon rondo and we could very well become contenders in two or three years. some solid role players from the bench and a great sixth man called millsap will be enough to become contenders.

predicted starting five and stats in 2-3 years

c-favors (15.5 ppg - 10 rpg - 1.8 bpg)
pf-kanter (13 ppg - 11 rpg)
sf-hayward (13.5 ppg - 4.5 rpg - 4 apg)
sg-burks (16 ppg - 4 rpg)
pg- X (for example marshall, rondo would be a dream...) (11 ppg - 8 apg)

sixth man: millsap (13 ppg - 6.5 rpg)

we have to do everything to get rid of both, harris and jefferson!
 
zman1527 said:
I completely agree with all the posts regarding interior D and rebounding. That seems to be a key to being a top team. Favors and Kanter look like they can be a great duo there.

But what about the offense? Few if any of those teams focused offense on the bigs the way the Jazz do and look like they are going to continue to do. Does that worry you? It does me. How many plays were called for Hayward when Sap and Al were in the game? I am just concerned that it seems like we are going to have the same approach as the last 20 years and pound it into the post all the time while the wings are just the 3rd or 4th option. I guess only the next several years will tell the tale.
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Is this a concern for me? I would be lying if I said no. That is just one of the reasons that I want Al gone and Millsap to take on a different role with this team. In my mind I keep telling myself that the reason that the offense was to send the ball to Al or Paul was because there was next to no training camp and the little that they did have was devoted to defense. I really hope that is the case.

I am also excited to see a leap from Hayward and Burks this offseason. If they can prove to be more able on offense i can see them getting more looks which in turn will create easier looks for Favors who I am also concerned with in regards to his offensive game.
 
zman1527 said:
But what about the offense? Few if any of those teams focused offense on the bigs the way the Jazz do and look like they are going to continue to do. Does that worry you?
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No. Basketball hasn't really changed. YOu get influxes of talaneted people in various positions (sometimes guards, sometimes centers, sometimes wings). Right now there are some really talented wings, but if you try to copy that model with inferior wings while ingnoring your own best talents in the middle, that will be a losing formula. Favors and Kanter are our two most talented players. If the rest of the NBA focuses on wings, that's just a match-up advantage for us.
 
One Brow said:
No. Basketball hasn't really changed. YOu get influxes of talaneted people in various positions (sometimes guards, sometimes centers, sometimes wings). Right now there are some really talented wings, but if you try to copy that model with inferior wings while ingnoring your own best talents in the middle, that will be a losing formula. Favors and Kanter are our two most talented players. If the rest of the NBA focuses on wings, that's just a match-up advantage for us.
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Are Favors and Kanter going to be better than Gasol/Bynum were for LA this year? That's a tall order. How did they do in the playoffs this year?
 
orangello said:
Is this a concern for me? I would be lying if I said no. That is just one of the reasons that I want Al gone and Millsap to take on a different role with this team. In my mind I keep telling myself that the reason that the offense was to send the ball to Al or Paul was because there was next to no training camp and the little that they did have was devoted to defense.
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The history of the team says differently.
 
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