Jazz Decades Semifinals Voting: vslice vs. SalmonHobo
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Gyp Rosetti
Banned
Don't twist my words. I never said that. What I'm saying is that Kidd was the better point guard for the larger part of the decade (70-80% of it) and at his prime early in the decade was better than Deron was at his "prime" late in the decade. This is not even debatable imo. Deron only wishes he could make two NBA Finals let alone be the key cog truly leading his team there, the guy every one can depend on every night. Deron only wishes he could defend even one iota as good as Kidd could in his prime. Deron is by far the better offensive player but Kidd would negate that with his stellar defense. If West was on him, Deron would likely eat him up. Except West would eat him up too. In short, Deron is a liability.
How can anyone not hate Jason Kidd?
"Once, after Kidd kicked her in the stomach causing blood to appear in her urine, Joumana alleges that he told her, "I don't give a f--k." She also claims that Kidd resorted to purchasing her expensive jewelry (a $585,000 pink diamond ring and a $550,000 diamond pendant) as a way to apologize for his marital infidelity."
People still hate on Kobe for sleeping with an 18 year old, but Kidd use to beat up women.
People still hate on Kobe for sleeping with an 18 year old, but Kidd use to beat up women.
Gyp Rosetti
Banned
Who hasn't wanted to hit a woman?
JK
But seriously, you have some of the biggest douches in league history on your team. Chuck Smiles ranks up there in all our Jazz hearts. Hell, so does Deron after witnessing the last 18 months and his fall from grace. And Kareem is one of the biggest douchenuggets to walk the Earth. And yet he wonders why there's no statue of him in front of Staples. Add in Jordan (my favorite player ever mind you) who used his platform for the better in no way at all basically (just ask Jim Brown--ironically, he beat women too) and your team's a potpourri of selfish douches.
JK
But seriously, you have some of the biggest douches in league history on your team. Chuck Smiles ranks up there in all our Jazz hearts. Hell, so does Deron after witnessing the last 18 months and his fall from grace. And Kareem is one of the biggest douchenuggets to walk the Earth. And yet he wonders why there's no statue of him in front of Staples. Add in Jordan (my favorite player ever mind you) who used his platform for the better in no way at all basically (just ask Jim Brown--ironically, he beat women too) and your team's a potpourri of selfish douches.
vslice02
Well-Known Member
Completely agree. I mentioned this in another thead when I explaining why I was starting Cowens ahead of Dwight Howard (FWIW, had I been able to I would've started Dwight next to Kareem in this matchup to combat the Gasol/Shaq twin towers)...that all five guys in my starting lineup are fierce competitors who only want to win - and absolutely don't care how big of a dick they come off as in trying to win basketball games.
I respect all 5 of them as great players, but personally none of them (other than Deron and that's likely only because he played for the Jazz) are among my favorite players.
This is really tough. Shaq/Gasol would be a fantastic front court, and D.Will/Jordan is a lethal back court. I think the match-up would come down to how the players play together and who wins the defensive/rebounding battle. Hobo's team is the better passing team, and it can all end up with Shaq dunking. I'd start Kirilenko or Russel just to guard Jordan and go with Hobo's team
Gyp Rosetti
Banned
If you take a look at my starting five's best year statistically in each of the following categories, it's sick. This is not to say these players accumulated all said stats in one season but rather it shows their best season for that stat in that decade, sort of as a microcosm of their overall skill level and how well-rounded they were.
Shaq: Best rebounding in 90's (13.9)...best assists (3.1)...best blocks (3.5)...steals (0.9)
Gasol: Best rebounding in 10's (11.3)...best assists (3.4)...best blocks (1.7)...steals (0.7)
Bird: Best rebounding in 80's (11.0)...best assists (7.6)...best blocks (1.2)...steals (2.0)
West: Best rebounding in 70's (4.6)...best assists (9.7)...best blocks (0.7)...steals (2.6)
Kidd: Best rebounding in 00's (8.2)...best assists (10.1)...best blocks (0.5)...steals (2.2)
49.0 rebounds per game, 33.9 assists, 7.6 blocks, 8.4 steals
I'm not saying that they would accumulate these combined stats per game. They'd be stepping on each other's toes so to speak and certainly wouldn't dominate against against similarly talented teams like vslice's. But I wanted to paint this picture to show their overall skill level and just how strong it was. They could outrebound, out pass, outsteal, outblock anyone.
In comparison...
Deron: 4.0, 10.7, 0.3, 1.3
Jordan: 6.9, 6.3, 1.0, 2.8
Pierce: 7.3, 5.1, 1.0, 2.1
Cowens: 16.2, 4.1, 1.3, 1.3
Jabbar: 10.8, 4.5, 3.4, 1.0
This combo produces at 45.2, 30.7, 7.0, and 8.5 per game.
Let's analyze this more.
I outrebound his starters by 3.8 per game. Putting Howard in there for Cowens does nothing as the latter's best year was 16.2. This difference is huge. To put it in perspective, Minny averaged 44.4 rebounds per game this year. 3.6 per game less (no team had 3.8 less) was Milwaukee at 40.8 per game. They were 18th in the league in rebounding. From 1st to 18th is a HUGE difference.
I also outdish him by a large margin at a differential of 3.2 per game. That margin was the difference between 1st and 21st in team assists this year (23.8/20.6)...huge, huge, HUGE difference.
Moving on, I average 0.7 more blocks per contest than vslice. This is nothing special. Blocks are largely overrated and the differential is only the difference between 1st and 7th in the league this year. But still, I win here.
Finishing this all off, I lose just by a hair in steals per game by 0.1. This is not even worth talking about as the difference is so small.
My point is my skill level, as I see it, is better and largely underrated. I also think my chemistry would be better as I see Deron being the weakest link of the 10 guys as far as make-up goes. Being as he's the point guard, that's not good.
Shaq: Best rebounding in 90's (13.9)...best assists (3.1)...best blocks (3.5)...steals (0.9)
Gasol: Best rebounding in 10's (11.3)...best assists (3.4)...best blocks (1.7)...steals (0.7)
Bird: Best rebounding in 80's (11.0)...best assists (7.6)...best blocks (1.2)...steals (2.0)
West: Best rebounding in 70's (4.6)...best assists (9.7)...best blocks (0.7)...steals (2.6)
Kidd: Best rebounding in 00's (8.2)...best assists (10.1)...best blocks (0.5)...steals (2.2)
49.0 rebounds per game, 33.9 assists, 7.6 blocks, 8.4 steals
I'm not saying that they would accumulate these combined stats per game. They'd be stepping on each other's toes so to speak and certainly wouldn't dominate against against similarly talented teams like vslice's. But I wanted to paint this picture to show their overall skill level and just how strong it was. They could outrebound, out pass, outsteal, outblock anyone.
In comparison...
Deron: 4.0, 10.7, 0.3, 1.3
Jordan: 6.9, 6.3, 1.0, 2.8
Pierce: 7.3, 5.1, 1.0, 2.1
Cowens: 16.2, 4.1, 1.3, 1.3
Jabbar: 10.8, 4.5, 3.4, 1.0
This combo produces at 45.2, 30.7, 7.0, and 8.5 per game.
Let's analyze this more.
I outrebound his starters by 3.8 per game. Putting Howard in there for Cowens does nothing as the latter's best year was 16.2. This difference is huge. To put it in perspective, Minny averaged 44.4 rebounds per game this year. 3.6 per game less (no team had 3.8 less) was Milwaukee at 40.8 per game. They were 18th in the league in rebounding. From 1st to 18th is a HUGE difference.
I also outdish him by a large margin at a differential of 3.2 per game. That margin was the difference between 1st and 21st in team assists this year (23.8/20.6)...huge, huge, HUGE difference.
Moving on, I average 0.7 more blocks per contest than vslice. This is nothing special. Blocks are largely overrated and the differential is only the difference between 1st and 7th in the league this year. But still, I win here.
Finishing this all off, I lose just by a hair in steals per game by 0.1. This is not even worth talking about as the difference is so small.
My point is my skill level, as I see it, is better and largely underrated. I also think my chemistry would be better as I see Deron being the weakest link of the 10 guys as far as make-up goes. Being as he's the point guard, that's not good.
Craig K. Manscill
Well-Known Member
The part where you said Kidd would own Deron on both sides of the court is so wrong. So, so wrong.
- Craig
- Craig
Gyp Rosetti
Banned
That's cute. I'll Kidd's flaws. Or should I say flaw. His shooting. Other than that, he was essentially flawless. Insane defense. Insane rebounder. Excellent distributor. Great leader. Insane on fast breaks. He dominates Deron in every one of those areas except passing where they're about even. I'll give Deron a nominal edge there if it makes you feel better but it's so minimal it's not even worth discussing. Kidd is an infinitely better defender, rebounder, leader, and general on the fast breaks that you calling Deron better is laughable.
Kidd
10 all-star games
6 x Top 10 in MVP balloting
5 x All-NBA First team, 2nd Team once
4 x All-NBA First Team Defense; 5 x All-NBA Second Team Defense
Williams
2 all-star games
2 x All-NBA 2nd Team
//r00t 4 Jazz
Well-Known Member
I would say Hobo's front court (C, PF & SF) would beat Vslice's but Vslice's team and bench is better and having said that, I can't stand MJ with a passion so I didn't want to vote for his team.