Jazz history, Status Quo and Social Media

[Lion's Roar]

[3] The Jazz offense had less movement in the early 90's (before Hornacek arrived) not only because the talent level around Stockton&Malone was poorer, but because the rules favored iso-ball. Illegal defenses encouraged 1-on-1 play and allowed Malone to be singled up on the block. If you fronted him it was a layup. Now teams can play in front of and behind Al and unless you can execute the high-low (Sap&Al can't) you have 4th-quarters like we saw against Chicago Friday night. And once the Jazz replaced JeffMalone w/Hornacek - the ball movement was on another level. Malone became one of the best low-post passers in the game as well. We didn't stand and watch, we cut down the lane, the guards would split, we kept moving which made double-teams alot harder and less effective.

Al is also getting better at passing the ball and his usage rating isn't nearly as high as some make ppl believe. Go check his usage % against that of Millsap, Hayward and Mo.

[4]-I never understood why fans criticized Sloan (a much smaller minority than now) because he had a proven track record and system that we all knew worked. From Dick Motta to Jerry Sloan - it worked. Repetition of good habits = good. Repitition of something that's proven not to work = bad.
It's obvious someone can make anything good sound bad and anything bad sound good. I think some of the criticism is over-the-top but it is what it is. It's not like everyone has it wrong and they simply don't understand what good basketball is.

Not saying that. But I believe for a 1st time coach dealing with a team that traded his superstar, faced a shortened season with almost no time to practice Corbin's doing a good job.

Bottom line for me is Utah began building for the future when they traded a top-12 NBA player - which I think was a potentially brilliant gamble. Two years later - they're marginalizing that entire trade under a bizarre "we want to win now" approach - and they're simply not good enough to win right now. Multiple seasons as a 7/8-seed w/out underlying growth is crippling in the NBA. (On a side note, I would argue many of our coaching decisions do not give Utah their best-chance to win but that's for another post). I agree there can and should be some balance in rebuilding between "tanking" and "trying to win" - but I think alot of fans would agree with me they're not seeing it right now.

What if the Jazz trade both Al and MIllsap by Feb 21st and the team starts playing the C4 often. This all would seem a bit much, no? I don't think it will happen and quite frankly I wouldn't mind let both Al and Millsap leave and get some sort of S&T with one of them and move forward then. If the Jazz put forth a team that starts Enes and Favs next year would it be such a bad thing that they waited for 30 more games?

 

[NUMBERICA]

What if the Jazz trade both Al and MIllsap by Feb 21st and the team starts playing the C4 often. This all would seem a bit much, no? I don't think it will happen and quite frankly I wouldn't mind let both Al and Millsap leave and get some sort of S&T with one of them and move forward then. If the Jazz put forth a team that starts Enes and Favs next year would it be such a bad thing that they waited for 30 more games?

Considering that they probably should've embraced rebuilding as long as two years ago and certainly as long ago as the 2012 offseason? Yes. Considering that those 30 games might give you a better picture of what the future might look like and respond accordingly? Yes. Considering that the Jazz will be unlikely to get anything in a S&T and in that case will have totally pissed away the worth of their assets? Yes.

 

[Lion's Roar]

True and that offseason they traded Dantley to make Karl the #1 option in his second year. They knew Karl was going to be better and made room for him to lead the team. Favors and Hayward now in their 3rd season still don't have leadership of the team despite the fact that they are and will be more effective and better players than Al Jefferson, Paul Millsap, Mo Williams and whoever else the Jazz consider leaders of this team.

Enes is 20 years old. He started playing 6 years ago (at age 14) and lost 1 and 1/2 season to Kentucky and the NBA lockout. The dude has Derrick already started quite a few games in New Jersey. He's 21 or 22 and also lost almost 1/2 a season last year. Karl was 23 when they let Dantley go. If Favs starts next year he would be right on track with the Mailman not in seasons played but in age. He won't turn out to be Malone I don't think.


I wanna go back to Enes. He played two seasons at bellow junior level in Turkey. He played 9 games as a Pro in Turkey averaging about 8 mpg. He plays some high school games in the US, the NIKE summit (1 game) and no games in the NCAA. He then proceedes to play no summer league and about only half a season. And he's 20 years old. Even Bynum had to sit when he came in so young.

 

[PrinceJL]

W/L since Stockton retired

Hi there folks.

Most of you probably don't know me. I've been with this site for over 10 years now on a variety of nicknames. I was a moderator and contributor for quite some time under the nicknames asgaarder and AsgThunder. I was here before during and after the RealGM merge/unmerge. I was here during the Stockton and Malone days. I was here during the Deron/Boozer years and I'm still around altough mostly in the shadows and I'm not all that active anymore.

I'm speaking out at this point cause I believe the ranting as reached a fever pitch and a state that I haven't seen in 10 years. The event of the social media has created a forum where fans are stating their opinions often and loudly. And who are the ones that talk the most? The ones that are against the Status Quo. I know that's the case. I WAS ONCE the one bickering at the FO and arguing about some decisions. I don't want to be here preaching from a high horse. I'm not a better fan they you guys that disagree with the Status Quo nor am I worse than you. But I think ppl need to chill out and think for a while about what we're witnessing. First of all a refresh on Jazz history:

* Malone didn't start his first year.
* Stockton didn't start till his 4th year.
* S&M were ousted in the first round of the playoffs something like 5 times.
* It took S&M 13 years to reach the Finals.
* Even after playing 17 years together S&M only went to the WCF 5 times.
* The left block post up that fans like to really go after Al for was once a staple of the Jazz offense with Malone working from there.
* For many, MANY years the Jazz offense had little movement. There were no zone defenses allowed and the Jazz played the PnR on one side with the three other players (Eaton included) standing behind the 3 pt line on the other corner. (no one seemed to complain back then)
* I've seen time and again fans going after Sloan and now they act like he was some sort of wizard and should be back and that Ty is so, so bad although his team keeps winning.

What I'm trying to say is that I believe we should be patient. Winning isn't easy in the NBA. It wasn't in the S&M days. Developing talent isn't easy either. Tanking sometimes only leads to a whole lot of years being really bad. It's been just two years since Deron left and we've been in the playoff hunt since and still have 4 lottery picks on board. Other teams like the position the Jazz are in, seemingly only Jazz fans don't like the position their team is in.

Do I believe the FO is always right? No. Neither is the coaching staff. Am I saying to wait 17 years for a Finals appearance? No. Am I glad with the minutes played by the young players. Sometimes, other times I'm not happy at all. I wake up and try and figure out if the Jazz made a move. But in the end of the day I think they would be better suited not making a move at all. Increases the chances of going to the playoffs and simple cap space can be truly underestimated.

So in retrospect we're 4 games over .500, 7th seed in the West, 5 lottery picks on the roster, 2 draft picks coming up on a draft rich in the position the Jazz lack, and a ton of cap space moving forward. Is that really that bad?

PS: Sorry for the long post.

We're still a Top 10 franchise since Stockton retired...

Team Win Loss % Playoff
SAS 549 226 0.708 9
DAL 508 265 0.657 9
LAL 478 296 0.618 8
DEN 459 315 0.593 9
PHX 451 323 0.583 5
MIA 440 330 0.571 8
BOS 438 335 0.567 7
HOU 437 338 0.564 5
DET 425 350 0.548 6
UTA 418 356 0.540 5
CHI 417 356 0.539 7
ORL 407 366 0.527 6
CLE 405 369 0.523 5
IND 395 379 0.510 5
OKC 389 384 0.503 4
MEM 371 401 0.481 5
POR 367 406 0.475 3
NOR 363 411 0.469 4
PHI 355 417 0.460 5
ATL 346 426 0.448 5
GSW 339 434 0.439 1
MIL 336 436 0.435 3
BKN 335 439 0.433 4
LAC 332 444 0.428 2
SAC 327 447 0.422 3
NYK 322 449 0.418 3
TOR 318 455 0.411 2
WAS 299 473 0.387 4
MIN 290 481 0.376 1
CHA 241 450 0.349 1

 

[vslice02]

What if the Jazz trade both Al and MIllsap by Feb 21st and the team starts playing the C4 often. This all would seem a bit much, no? I don't think it will happen and quite frankly I wouldn't mind let both Al and Millsap leave and get some sort of S&T with one of them and move forward then. If the Jazz put forth a team that starts Enes and Favs next year would it be such a bad thing that they waited for 30 more games?

If you made this argument prior to last season, I would probably lean towards your side. But a whole year later, Favors&Kanter have shown clear progression and I would argue are Utah's two best defending bigs. I like Millsap and hope the Jazz resign him. Heck, I'd be alright w/letting Big Al expire this offseason as well - the issue in the meantime is PT. Yes, even for 30 games - I think it's poor judgement to relegate Favors as a 22mpg bench guy when he could sign an extension this offseason. Jazz have a ton of cap room to shape and retool their roster this offseason - but you can't build a roster if you don't know what you already have. Utah could set themselves up pretty w/all that cap room plus a young 4-man nucleus still playing on their rookie contracts - instead we have 4 former lottery picks who are bench players.

 

[One Brow]

PS: Sorry for the long post.

Welcome back, and you post was not long compared to some.

 

[One Brow]

Malone started 76 games his rookie year https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/malonka01.html
Stockton despite not starting still played in every game. maybe the Jazz would have been better back then if Stockton would have started. Maybe Stockton's assist record would be even more unbreakable.

Malone played three-four years in college, Stockton played four. They were grown men when they entered the league. By contrast, Favors played one year and Kanter was redshirted for a year. They were not grown men.

I want Favors to play a little more, and Kanter to greatly increase his minutes, but they were drafted on the potential of who they would be in 2016, not 2013.

 

[orangello]

Malone played three-four years in college, Stockton played four. They were grown men when they entered the league. By contrast, Favors played one year and Kanter was redshirted for a year. They were not grown men.

I want Favors to play a little more, and Kanter to greatly increase his minutes, but they were drafted on the potential of who they would be in 2016, not 2013.

I understand where you are coming from on this but I don't agree with you.

What Favors lacks on the offensive end he more than makes up for it on the defensive end. Favors is a net positive player. Jefferson is a net negative player.
Kanter has earned more minutes but he is still stuck on the bench. Both players are already good enough to see 25+ minutes a game. The Jazz would continue to win at a rate that is similar to what they are currently winning at, if those two were given that 25+ minutes a game.

 

[GVC]

I want Favors to play a little more, and Kanter to greatly increase his minutes, but they were drafted on the potential of who they would be in 2016, not 2013.

The potential problem with this strategy is that both players will be eligible for extensions after year 3, or, if they don't sign extensions, become restricted free agents after year 4. Now, it's possible that bringing them along slowly will save the Jazz more money than it will cost them development (if other teams shy away from uncertainty), but young bigs with potential get paid, often regardless of production. The Jazz might be forced to make a decision on paying them without properly developing them or really knowing what they're getting. It'll be interesting to see what happens in contract extension negotiations with Favors (and Hayward) this summer.

 

[One Brow]

What Favors lacks on the offensive end he more than makes up for it on the defensive end. Favors is a net positive player. Jefferson is a net negative player.

Favors is net positive playing primarily against back-ups, Jefferson net-negative primarily against starters. You might be right that the Jazz would win at the same rate playing both Favors and Kanter 25+ minutes, but it will be tough when the differences between them and Millsap/Jefferson are not huge and the level of opposition faced is not insignificant.

 

[zman1527]

I want Favors to play a little more, and Kanter to greatly increase his minutes, but they were drafted on the potential of who they would be in 2016, not 2013.

How do we best make them ready for 2016? It is debatable, but more minutes sooner has got to help. Also, Favors can play now and should be getting big minutes. He is an exceptional defensive player already and offense is not bad.

 

[One Brow]

The Jazz might be forced to make a decision on paying them without properly developing them or really knowing what they're getting. It'll be interesting to see what happens in contract extension negotiations with Favors (and Hayward) this summer.

We'll just have to agree to disagree that playing an extra 5-10 minutes per game would give the coaches, front office, and other people who see these players every day a much higher understanding of who they will be getting. Anytime you sign a low-20s guy to 6 years, you are taking a chance, no matter how many minutes they play. Would you say the Jazz got what they expected/hoped from Deron Williams, for example?

Now, you and I will have little idea what the Jazz are getting. That's not the same thing.