Job creators? Tax cuts? Unions? Health care? Social Security? HA!

[Gyp Rosetti]

While much of the statements made in this string of posts are thoughtful and accurate, the above statement is greatly exaggerated. Here's a counterweight: without unions, we wouldn't have time for this message board because our oppressive bosses wouldn't give us the time off to read or post--and we might not have the income to do so.

For many people, "fringe benefits" such as health benefits aren't "fringe" at all, and whether they receive the health benefits or an equivalent dollar amount, it's still value. For some people, the fringe benefit of health might be a bigger benefit than the equivalent cash because the patient might not be able to pay for an equivalent individual plan (or part of a group plan) with the same amount of value.

This last paragraph is likely true.

I think much of what MsSerp says about unions being archaic, so to speak, comes from the last point with which you agreed. Unfortunately our economy can simply not sustain such pensions and benefits any more. As a teacher myself, I find it absolutely absurd that I can retire at 55 and then make about $55,000 for the rest of my life for sitting at home and doing jack ****. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that that math isn't going to work long-term, especially as our population grows and our medicine improves. Hence why Christie is up our asses out here. It also doesn't take a genius to figure out that receiving such money (and bennies) is absurd. I'm not saying we shouldn't receive a pension or bennies upon retirement. But that retirement age and percentage is ridiculous. Verizon's case is obviously different because they're private, not public like teachers, cops, etcetera but I think you see my point.

 

[One Brow]

I have yet to meet a conservative that asks for less government in social matters.

That's because `people who want less gvernemnt in both business and social matters are usually libertaians, not conservative, and are more likely to describve themseves as the "true liberals".

 

[SaltyDawg]

There's a difference between an accountant and a CPA/Big Three partner.

I doubt the CTJ is paying their "accountants" 500K a year to be on staff for when such articles and issues arise.

I doubt they're paying anyone 500k either. But I wouldn't be surprised if some of those CPAs making 500k per year are also consultants for CTJ on the side. And some of those CPAs who used to be making 500k that are now retired are also consulting for the CPA on a part time basis.

Not saying this is the case (I don't work for the CTJ so I have no idea who works there), but I would be surprised if it wasn't.

 

[SaltyDawg]

I think much of what MsSerp says about unions being archaic, so to speak, comes from the last point with which you agreed. Unfortunately our economy can simply not sustain such pensions and benefits any more. As a teacher myself, I find it absolutely absurd that I can retire at 55 and then make about $55,000 for the rest of my life for sitting at home and doing jack ****. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that that math isn't going to work long-term, especially as our population grows and our medicine improves. Hence why Christie is up our asses out here. It also doesn't take a genius to figure out that receiving such money (and bennies) is absurd. I'm not saying we shouldn't receive a pension or bennies upon retirement. But that retirement age and percentage is ridiculous. Verizon's case is obviously different because they're private, not public like teachers, cops, etcetera but I think you see my point.

I'm pretty sure they will let you forfeit yours if you truly feel that it's absurd for you to receive it.

Or are you saying you want yours, but it's absurd for other people to receive it?

 

[sirkickyass]

Fun prediction: The equivalent of this report for corporate taxation relating to 2011 taxes will be even more hysterical given that business are allowed to depreciate more of their equipment purchases in 2011 than they have previously been able to. That will lead to a lot of grousing about businesses not paying taxes without any thought into the deductibility of business expenses.

 

[Gyp Rosetti]

I'm pretty sure they will let you forfeit yours if you truly feel that it's absurd for you to receive it.

Or are you saying you want yours, but it's absurd for other people to receive it?

I'm saying it's obvious that the system needs to be changed and I wouldn't bitch one second about it like you would.

 

[SaltyDawg]

I'm saying it's obvious that the system needs to be changed and I wouldn't bitch one second about it like you would.

But you are not willing to forfeit yours?

If I was getting paid something I didn't think I deserved, I would not hesitate to forfeit it. Not sure where you got the idea I would bitch about it. I would only bitch if I didn't think the reduction was fair.

So, are you saying you think a reduction is warranted, but you aren't willing to set the example and forfeit yours?

 

[Gyp Rosetti]

But you are not willing to forfeit yours?

If I was getting paid something I didn't think I deserved, I would not hesitate to forfeit it. Not sure where you got the idea I would bitch about it. I would only bitch if I didn't think the reduction was fair.

So, are you saying you think a reduction is warranted, but you aren't willing to set the example and forfeit yours?

Not sure where I got the idea that you'd bitch about it?

https://jazzfanz.com/showthread.php?6995-Job-creators-Tax-cuts-Unions-Health-care-Social-Security-HA!

This has nothing to do with you so I can only imagine how much you'd bitch if you were a Verizon employee.

As far as me volunteering to forfeit my bennies, let's not mistake two things. I said I wouldn't complain if they did cut mine (like they're doing as we now have to pay into health and will likely have to pay more as years go on) like these Verizon employees are doing. I'm not saying they're wrong either. I see both sides to the coin, like you obviously don't care to. But that doesn't mean I am going to volunteer myself for the cross and forego what I see as fair compensation and benefits.

Please spare the holier than thou gig.

On a separate note, do you bitch this much to your wife?

 

[SaltyDawg]

Not sure where I got the idea that you'd bitch about it?

https://jazzfanz.com/showthread.php?6995-Job-creators-Tax-cuts-Unions-Health-care-Social-Security-HA!

This has nothing to do with you so I can only imagine how much you'd bitch if you were a Verizon employee.

As far as me volunteering to forfeit my bennies, let's not mistake two things. I said I wouldn't complain if they did cut mine (like they're doing as we now have to pay into health and will likely have to pay more as years go on) like these Verizon employees are doing. I'm not saying they're wrong either. I see both sides to the coin, like you obviously don't care to. But that doesn't mean I am going to volunteer myself for the cross and forego what I see as fair compensation and benefits.

Please spare the holier than thou gig.

On a separate note, do you bitch this much to your wife?

#1: I don't think this is fair, that's why I "bitched" about it. If I thought it was fair, I wouldn't have bitched.
#2: This absolutely does affect me.

Again, if I was receiving something that I didn't think I deserved, I would have no problems setting the example by forfeiting mine. And I have done that many, many times over the years. Not on the level you are talking about (working through break when I came in late, reporting when I got a little extra on my paycheck, things like that) but I am very comfortable in saying that I earned and deserve everything I receive from my employer. And if I honestly felt that I deserved a paycut, I would have no problem volunteering for it. Realistically, if I felt I deserved a paycut, I would probably try to work harder and make myself worth my current compensation. I certainly wouldn't "bitch" if someone else agreed that I didn't deserve my current level of compensation.

 

[billyshelby]

So I copied the part of Ms Serp's post that was relevant to Verizon's taxes and emailed it to the CTJ. Here is the response I got:

"CTJ compiles its information about Verizon and the other corporations we study from the 10-Ks that they file each year with the SEC. The taxes Verizon says it paid in “actual cash” do not split out U.S. taxes from worldwide taxes, so that’s not helpful. I think we will agree that the question here is what taxes Verizon paid to the U.S. government for its U.S. profits, and not what Verizon paid to foreign governments on profits it made in other countries.

It seems that the commenter agrees with CTJ that the only way you can say Verizon paid taxes in 2010 would be to count the “deferred” taxes for 2010 along with the “current” taxes. So I would just ask one question: Are the “deferred” taxes for 2010 taxes that Verizon ACTUALLY paid in 2010?

No, they’re not. They did not actually pay these taxes in 2010. And if you only count the taxes Verizon actually paid in 2010 (current taxes for 2010) then you find that Verizon had negative tax liability in 2010. That’s why our report says they had negative tax liability in 2010. Where is the disagreement here?

It’s often the case that these deferred taxes are never paid because the companies find ways to defer them each year. But let’s assume they are eventually paid. If the “deferred” taxes for 2010 are actually paid in 2012, they will show up as “current” taxes in 2012. In other words, if you want to track what taxes corporations are actually paying each year, you need to focus on the “current” taxes paid for each year. "


So, it seems they are sticking to their guns on this and claiming Verizon did not pay any taxes. Well, at least not any US taxes.

Also, I must note again that Verizon actually responded to the CTJ's claims. And in Verizon's response they claimed they followed all tax laws but never said they actually paid any taxes.

I am not an accountant so I'm basically speculating here (and I await Salmon Hobo's wife if she so chooses to respond). But isn't the CTJ argument one of semantics? Verizon was assessed a tax liability as I read it. Legally, they deferred it. Deferment is not negation, they're still on the hook for it, they just didn't actually write a check because of the tax code.

So the CTJ's claim that Verizon paid "no taxes" sounds a little disingenuous to me. If their fight is with the tax code that allows these deferments, I'm on board. But I still want to hear their larger plan for how to make corporations more accountable to paying taxes in the climate of a corporate tax rate that is one of the highest in the world which doesn't then have a net negative impact on the domestic economy.

 

[Gyp Rosetti]

I am not an accountant so I'm basically speculating here (and I await Salmon Hobo's wife if she so chooses to respond). But isn't the CTJ argument one of semantics? Verizon was assessed a tax liability as I read it. Legally, they deferred it. Deferment is not negation, they're still on the hook for it, they just didn't actually write a check because of the tax code.

So the CTJ's claim that Verizon paid "no taxes" sounds a little disingenuous to me. If their fight is with the tax code that allows these deferments, I'm on board. But I still want to hear their larger plan for how to make corporations more accountable to paying taxes in the climate of a corporate tax rate that is one of the highest in the world which doesn't then have a net negative impact on the domestic economy.

Yeah, this pretty much sounds like what MsSerp said. It's basic GAAP. But obviously the douche at CTJ and Salty want to ignore GAAP/law and run with it.

 

[Gyp Rosetti]

#1: I don't think this is fair, that's why I "bitched" about it. If I thought it was fair, I wouldn't have bitched.
#2: This absolutely does affect me.

Again, if I was receiving something that I didn't think I deserved, I would have no problems setting the example by forfeiting mine. And I have done that many, many times over the years. Not on the level you are talking about (working through break when I came in late, reporting when I got a little extra on my paycheck, things like that) but I am very comfortable in saying that I earned and deserve everything I receive from my employer. And if I honestly felt that I deserved a paycut, I would have no problem volunteering for it. Realistically, if I felt I deserved a paycut, I would probably try to work harder and make myself worth my current compensation. I certainly wouldn't "bitch" if someone else agreed that I didn't deserve my current level of compensation.

I too said I deserve what I get paid. I bust my *** and far exceed my peers as far as results/student data is concerned. So like you, I wouldn't volunteer myself to be paid less. It makes no sense as I deserve what I get paid (and probably deserve a little more as I should get hazard pay but I don't bitch about it because if I wasn't content, I'd look for another job) and perhaps more importantly would be committing "industry" suicide by volunteering to be the sacrificial lamb. Since I love what I do and want to continue doing it, I'm not going to raise my hand and say, hey, do me a favor, lower my salary and make me responsible for paying a large portion of my medical and cut some of my pension. Not only would I conveniently lose my tenure but I'd be black-balled from teaching and become a raging alcoholic to boot.

That said, as the education climate gets uglier and uglier, and we in NJ are being forced to pay for more into our health bennies and in places take pay freezes, I don't sit and bitch about it. I recognize that the state is in debt and measures have to be taken. I recognize how much better off I have it than most other people when it comes to my bennies/health/pension and so for me to have to pay some isn't asking the world. How much money the state wastes and how we're getting screwed out of our pensions is a whole 'nother matter but I still feel we should have to pay some into the system.

Your comparison of working through a break and reporting it when you got paid a little extra says it all I think. Patting yourself on the back for things most people would do and if not done, are absolutely trivial in comparison to your proposition that I volunteer to earn less money and pay more into my benefits, is a joke. Salty, this is why people laugh at you on this board. As great a human being as you obviously think you are, you too would never say, I don't deserve this pension or this salary or these bennies. If you think you would, you're lying.

 

[SaltyDawg]

I too said I deserve what I get paid. I bust my *** and far exceed my peers as far as results/student data is concerned. So like you, I wouldn't volunteer myself to be paid less. It makes no sense as I deserve what I get paid (and probably deserve a little more as I should get hazard pay but I don't bitch about it because if I wasn't content, I'd look for another job) and perhaps more importantly would be committing "industry" suicide by volunteering to be the sacrificial lamb. Since I love what I do and want to continue doing it, I'm not going to raise my hand and say, hey, do me a favor, lower my salary and make me responsible for paying a large portion of my medical and cut some of my pension. Not only would I conveniently lose my tenure but I'd be black-balled from teaching and become a raging alcoholic to boot.

That said, as the education climate gets uglier and uglier, and we in NJ are being forced to pay for more into our health bennies and in places take pay freezes, I don't sit and bitch about it. I recognize that the state is in debt and measures have to be taken. I recognize how much better off I have it than most other people when it comes to my bennies/health/pension and so for me to have to pay some isn't asking the world. How much money the state wastes and how we're getting screwed out of our pensions is a whole 'nother matter but I still feel we should have to pay some into the system.

Your comparison of working through a break and reporting it when you got paid a little extra says it all I think. Patting yourself on the back for things most people would do and if not done, are absolutely trivial in comparison to your proposition that I volunteer to earn less money and pay more into my benefits, is a joke. Salty, this is why people laugh at you on this board. As great a human being as you obviously think you are, you too would never say, I don't deserve this pension or this salary or these bennies. If you think you would, you're lying.

I never patted myself on the back for things most people would do. I was simply pointing out that I would give some back if I didn't think I deserved it. If you think you deserve what you get, that's another story.

You think my comparison is ridiculous? Take a look in the mirror buddy. You just compared your own situation to this one at Verizon. You pointed out that your state is in debt, so even though you think you deserve what you get, you'd be open to a reduction (but still unwilling to volunteer for it, so I doubt you'd be too open for it, but that's another matter).

As pointed out in this thread, Verizon is NOT in debt. In fact, they made 12 billion dollars last year. They absolutely have the money to keep paying these people what they are worth. Therefore, this is not even close to the same situation you are in, and the comparison is ridiculous. And this isn't some minor increase in health care that they are being asked to pay for. It's a 20k reduction in pay/bennies each.

Everyone keeps pointing out that Verizon wireless is making all the money, while Verizon landline business is not making as much. But they are not considering the fact that Verizon wireless uses Verizon landlines as backhaul for almost every one of their towers (and presumably at a much cheaper rate than anyone else would pay). So the profits Verizon wireless makes are based on the cheap backhaul rates they are getting for Verizon landline backhaul. If they raise those prices, suddenly Verizon wireless isn't as profitable, and Verizon landline is considerably more profitable.

It's all accounting tricks. Which is why they have no problem paying their top execs top dollar.

 

[Gyp Rosetti]

I never patted myself on the back for things most people would do. I was simply pointing out that I would give some back if I didn't think I deserved it. If you think you deserve what you get, that's another story.

You think my comparison is ridiculous? Take a look in the mirror buddy. You just compared your own situation to this one at Verizon. You pointed out that your state is in debt, so even though you think you deserve what you get, you'd be open to a reduction (but still unwilling to volunteer for it, so I doubt you'd be too open for it, but that's another matter).

As pointed out in this thread, Verizon is NOT in debt. In fact, they made 12 billion dollars last year. They absolutely have the money to keep paying these people what they are worth. Therefore, this is not even close to the same situation you are in, and the comparison is ridiculous. And this isn't some minor increase in health care that they are being asked to pay for. It's a 20k reduction in pay/bennies each.

Everyone keeps pointing out that Verizon wireless is making all the money, while Verizon landline business is not making as much. But they are not considering the fact that Verizon wireless uses Verizon landlines as backhaul for almost every one of their towers (and presumably at a much cheaper rate than anyone else would pay). So the profits Verizon wireless makes are based on the cheap backhaul rates they are getting for Verizon landline backhaul. If they raise those prices, suddenly Verizon wireless isn't as profitable, and Verizon landline is considerably more profitable.

It's all accounting tricks. Which is why they have no problem paying their top execs top dollar.

I'm done because like any Ute or technology thread, my words are pointless. Your mind was made up before you even started this thread.

 

[SaltyDawg]

I'm done because like any Ute or technology thread, my words are pointless. Your mind was made up before you even started this thread.

My mind was made up about what? Are you trying to convince me about something?