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Less Miles, more Evans & Hayward

zbone said:
I'm not a CJ homer and would love to see more AK over CJ but let's be fair here. CJ takes most of his ill advised shots with shot clock winding down. What do you want him to do with 4sec to go? Pass it up to someone else on perimeter?
In fact when plays got broken and clock is going down passing the ball up to your best outside shooter on the court is'nt worst decision.
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Sample size: 1 game. So sue me.

CJ vs. Golden State 2/16/2011

missed driving layup with 17 seconds on shot clock
made layup with 19 seconds on shot clock
missed 21-foot jumper with 9 seconds left
made 8 foot jumper with 0 seconds left
fouled on shot with 21 seconds on shot clock (made 2 free throws)
made 3-pointer with 6 seconds left
missed 24-foot 3-pointer with 6 seconds left
made 3-pointer with 0 seconds left
dunk with 19 seconds left
made layup with 8 seconds left
missed 25-foot 3-pointer with 10 seconds left
missed shot with 8 seconds left
missed 10-footer with 6 seconds left
fouled on shot with 6 seconds left (made 2 free throws)
missed 18-foot jumper with 6 seconds left
missed 22-footer with 18 seconds left
missed 23-foot 3-pointer with 11 seconds left
missed 24-foot 3-pointer with 20 seconds left
missed layup with 12 seconds left
made layup with 20 seconds left

ok, ok...one more game

CJ vs. Phoenix 2/15/2011

missed 21-footer with 1 second left
missed 11-footer with 18 seconds left
missed 6-footer with 17 seconds left
made 9-footer with 12 seconds left
made layup with 20 seconds left
made layup with 19 seconds left
missed 17-footer with 6 seconds left
missed 24-foot 3-pointer with 11 seconds left
made 16-footer with 20 seconds left
missed 22-footer with 9 seconds left
missed 21-footer with 3 seconds left
made 7-foot shot with 4 seconds left
missed 25-foot 3-pointer with 5 seconds left
made 5-footer with 16 seconds left
missed 29-foot 3-pointer with 0 seconds left
made 9-foot shot with 21 seconds left
missed 9-foot shot with 0 seconds left
missed 25-foot 3-pointer with 0 seconds left
made 24-foot 3-pointer with 22 seconds left

I'm just providing data; I'm not offering opinions as to whether CJ truly sucks or is merely horrible. I'll let the data -- which clearly shows that most to 95% to all of his shots are taken in the last few seconds of the shot clock -- speak for itself.
 
bordelais7 said:
I'm just providing data; I'm not offering opinions as to whether CJ truly sucks or is merely horrible. I'll let the data -- which clearly shows that most to 95% to all of his shots are taken in the last few seconds of the shot clock -- speak for itself.
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Classic.
 
bordelais7 said:
I'm just providing data; I'm not offering opinions as to whether CJ truly sucks or is merely horrible. I'll let the data -- which clearly shows that most to 95% to all of his shots are taken in the last few seconds of the shot clock -- speak for itself.
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Data shows that there are very few 20ft jumpers with more than 5 seconds on the clock.
Other than that one can tell nothing from this data as to were these shots ill advised or not.
 
zbone said:
Data shows that there are very few 20ft jumpers with more than 5 seconds on the clock.
Other than that one can tell nothing from this data as to were these shots ill advised or not.
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But the data shows there were 14 shots missed from outside 5 feet with more than 5 seconds left on the shot clock over 2 games. Including 5 missed shots in a row what appears to be late in the game all with plenty of time on the shot clock.

Point is this shows that at least in these 2 games CJ was not forced to throw a desperation heave at the 0 second mark for every single shot he took outside 5 feet, as some would lead us to believe.
 
LogGrad98 said:
But the data shows there were 14 shots missed from outside 5 feet with more than 5 seconds left on the shot clock over 2 games. Including 5 missed shots in a row what appears to be late in the game all with plenty of time on the shot clock.

Point is this shows that at least in these 2 games CJ was not forced to throw a desperation heave at the 0 second mark for every single shot he took outside 5 feet, as some would lead us to believe.
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Are you suggesting each shot outside 5 feet and not withing 5 sec is a bad shot or what?
Weren't so many people on this board who moaned about how Sloan yelled at players who took open shots with plenty of time on the clock?
From what I remember in these games CJ took only 2 or 3 shots that I would call bad, unnecessary and out of sync.
My point is this doesn't look as something outstanding if you put Miles' performance into perspective of overall team struggles. CJ shooting Jazz out of games is not the reason Jazz losing games, it's rather symptoms.
 
Miles is a good player when he isn't content on chucking all the time.

Problem is, he does seem to be content more than not. And it's amplified when the team has injuries and when I'm sure he feels the need to chuck more.
 
A team team can only absorb so many injuries w/o eventually affecting the overall team play. Without Okur and Kirilenko, we are hurtin'. Yeah, CJ has issues, but until we lost AK, CJ was by far our best bench scorer. Add to this DWill's sudden shooting slump, and we ain't got much in the way of options.
I absolutely would like to see more of Hayward; he plays with effort and smarts all over the court, offense and defense. Right now he's a better defender than CJ, especially at SG. He clearly should get at least 1st b/u minutes at SG over Miles and Price. CJ is more effective at SF. The reason he was our 6th man, IMO, is he's less hesitant to take a shot than AK, who's more of a passer on offense. Without CJ and Okur, who on the 2nd unit is gonna shoot the ball?
If Okur were healthy, we'd be better off with him starting at C, with Big Al starting at PF and Millsap off the bench, possibly playing some SF against certain teams.
 
zbone said:
Are you suggesting each shot outside 5 feet and not withing 5 sec is a bad shot or what?
Weren't so many people on this board who moaned about how Sloan yelled at players who took open shots with plenty of time on the clock?
From what I remember in these games CJ took only 2 or 3 shots that I would call bad, unnecessary and out of sync.
My point is this doesn't look as something outstanding if you put Miles' performance into perspective of overall team struggles. CJ shooting Jazz out of games is not the reason Jazz losing games, it's rather symptoms.
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I am saying exactly what I said. I don't know if they were good shots, great shots, or horrible shots. All that mattered was he missed. Time and time again. With plenty of time on the shot clock, which was the original argument, that he missed because he was forced into bad shots by the shot clock, but we see in these 2 games that was not the case. Plenty of time on the clock, still missed.

Again we obviously cannot tell from this info if it was a good shot or a bad shot, or how closely he was being guarded, or who was guarding him, or if he farted when he shot it. All we can see is when he made or missed a shot and when during the shot clock the shot was taken. And we see that more often than not he had plenty of time on the clock and still missed.
 
To make any sense of the data, it might be helpful to compare the percentage of shots that CJ takes with less than 3 or 4 seconds on the clock to the percentage of his team-mates. My guess is that it's not much different. In other words, everyone else has just as much opportunity to chuck "ill-advised" shots with the clock winding down.

So, without further ado...someone compile the data.
 
Also, CJ appears to shoot just as poorly on "healthy-advised" shots as he does on the "ill-advised". Ergo, in general the more CJ shoots -- period -- the worse the Jazz' chances are of winning.

Someone compile that data as well. If it doesn't support the theory, please keep it to yourself.
 
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to bordelais7 again.
 
DutchJazzer said:
what should he do when the shotclock is expiring not shoot?
you dont know ****
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Exactly.

He needs to stop chucking up bricks with 10 and 15 seconds left on the shot clock too.
 
bordelais7 said:
Also, CJ appears to shoot just as poorly on "healthy-advised" shots as he does on the "ill-advised". Ergo, in general the more CJ shoots -- period -- the worse the Jazz' chances are of winning.

Someone compile that data as well. If it doesn't support the theory, please keep it to yourself.
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I don't have any compiled data other than never missing any Jazz games. But... CJ always, and I mean always, misses shots where he is not stepping into them. Meaning when he does his little catch the ball take a mini hop into the shot and then lets it fire he's nearly automatic. When he thinks he's Kobe, he chucks from everywhere and bricks quite a few then gets down on himself and misses damn near the rest. He's at his best when he steps into his shot, usually cause he's set up by Deron, and then let's loose. When he just stands out on the perimeter waiting for the ball I cringe nearly as much as I do when AK attempts to do anything on the court other than pass.
 
feeko said:
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over the last couple of weeks (with the little playing time they've been getting) i've really seen evans and hayward develop more than cj has in 6 years. these guys need to be playing more. they are young, extremely energetic, and for rookies really don't make many mistakes. evans has been a beast the last 2 games yet i don't understand why corbin isn't playing him. i really think we could have won the game last night if ty played
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Evans needs to develop an NBA body. With the frame he has, he is very liable for injuries and that would not only hurt the team but also his development. Hayward is more NBA ready, but still I wouldn't play him more than 25 Minutes in his rookie year for the same health risk reasons like with Evans.
 
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