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Let's talk (our) Shaq ...

I

idiot

Well-Known Member
Specifically, is he going to get legit playing time this season?

I was hopeful Quin would find a way to incorporate him, but it seems (unless at least two of Conley, Ingles, Clarkson, and Mitchell are out) that he has several things stacked against him -- some that reflect on him, others that don't.
  • It turns out the Jazz can have a great defense with a Conley/Mitchell/Clarkson guard rotation (with assistance from Ingles, O'Neale, Oni, as well).
  • The Jazz seem to be following the adage that the key to a great defense is a great offense (or perhaps the adage that superior offensive talent in the backcourt gets you farther than superior defensive talent)
  • Shaq has looked terrible in garbage time as a PG (admittedly, with all the caveats that need to go along with this statement). The Jazz have looked far better in pre-season minutes with Forrest running the show. Shaq has been a steady stream of missed shots, turnovers, and giving up points to the likes of Nico Mannion. (He's been a pretty good rebounder and has some assists, to be fair.)
  • Though he should at least be good as a man defender, it seems that Shaq's defensive (and perhaps offensive) abilities are maximized in a risk-taking, blitzing system. The Jazz play a much more conservative game.
  • Shaq could theoretically play some 2-guard (and it shouldn't matter too much in the Jazz's system which guard spot he plays), but the Jazz seem disinclined to experiment with him there (perhaps a hard thing to do, since he's usually the only active PG among the garbage-time bunch). In any event, if the Jazz looked at him as a 2-guard, then he's biding his time behind five players Quin is likely to give playing time to first (Mitchell, Clarkson, Ingles, O'Neale, and Oni).
  • Like it or not, for good or for bad, Quin likes predictable rotations. He'll hang with a rotation until far beyond what most of us here would need to see to start shaking things up.
  • Like Conley last year, Shaq's probably dealing with a very different kind of system from what he's used to.

Some questions:
  • What's the best (or most likely) path for Shaq to start seeing some PT? Does he have a path to join Oni and Morgan in the 10-minute spot-role if certain players are out? Or has Oni's relative success rendered Shaq irrelevant unless we have multiple key players out?
  • Would you trust Shaq getting important minutes at this point (more than, say, Mudiay last year)? Who would he need to play alongside to get the best out of him?
  • Are the Jazz wasting time trying to develop his PG skills?
  • Does it just not matter at this point: should we just be happy the Jazz are playing great, Oni looks serviceable, Forrest looks like the better long-term bet as a PG (don't have to fix Forrest's feel for the game, just his shot)?
 
Considering that there was very little disagreement about Shaq being worth signing (especially at the minimum), I'm still just happy that what was a seemingly contentious issue for the board - for little to no reason - got resolved by the Jazz signing him.

I'd like to think that as we get later in the season and he's had more and more work with the staff and reps in garbage time that his comfort level (and hopefully base skill) improves. Ultimately, him playing well is more of a luxury than a necessity at this point. Though, I will say when I watch him, he seems to suffer from the all-too-common failing of trying to wow in garbage time rather than settling into the sets and letting the game come to him. If he can show some patience with the offense and remember what has gotten him into and kept him in the league (defense), I think he'll be good.

Perhaps more relevant, I don't think he's even the tenth man. I think Oni, Morgan, and even Hughes might be ahead of him.
 
I think you play him with 4 shooters. He only plays when Juwan Morgan plays the 5. Otherwise, he needs to figure out honestly how he can core and make players defend him.
 
NUMBERICA said:
Considering that there was very little disagreement about Shaq being worth signing (especially at the minimum), I'm still just happy that what was a seemingly contentious issue for the board - for little to no reason - got resolved by the Jazz signing him.

I'd like to think that as we get later in the season and he's had more and more work with the staff and reps in garbage time that his comfort level (and hopefully base skill) improves. Ultimately, him playing well is more of a luxury than a necessity at this point. Though, I will say when I watch him, he seems to suffer from the all-too-common failing of trying to wow in garbage time rather than settling into the sets and letting the game come to him. If he can show some patience with the offense and remember what has gotten him into and kept him in the league (defense), I think he'll be good.

Perhaps more relevant, I don't think he's even the tenth man. I think Oni, Morgan, and even Hughes might be ahead of him.
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Nice thoughts. I'm happy he's in our pocket as well. I'd be surprised if Hughes is ahead of him though.
 
whatthe said:
I think you play him with 4 shooters. He only plays when Juwan Morgan plays the 5. Otherwise, he needs to figure out honestly how he can core and make players defend him.
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Maybe so. I don't know if we've seen him enough in a situation where he's not the PG to know if his catch-and-shoot jumper is that much of a liability. I think his best individual pairing is perhaps with Donovan. Donovan can handle the ball all he wants; Shaq can pick up the scraps from a scrambling defense and provide just a bit of secondary ballhandling; and they can be more or less interchangeable in who they guard defensively.
 
He's looked pretty bad as a PG in garbage time. I just dont think Utah has much interest in playing non-shooters off-ball who arent bigs. I think Utah took a flyer to see how he is.
 
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3pt shooting. If you can shoot threes you will get minutes under Snyder, which makes Wayne Ellington a better FA option than Shaq. Even though everyone knows that we desperately need a perimeter defender, the team simply values 3 over D. That's how things are currently.
 
All of the scrubs would look better playing with the regular rotation players, but it's pretty obvious he's a really bad offensive basketball player. This should be obvious if you've looked at his track record or watched him play. He can definitely add value on defense and maybe the right situation comes for him to deliver...but he has massive limitations on offense. He is awful with the ball and his track record would also suggest that he's also one of the worst shooters in the league. Everything we do on offense could be brought down in flames just by his presence on offense.

I loved the signing and thought he was well worth taking a flyer on...but the idea that Shaq was going to end up starting and being the solution to our perimeter defense was incredibly far fetched.

Shaq is also 27. He's not a young player and I don't really see the framework for him to develop at this age. Ingles, Niang, and Royce have developed as older players (Royce and Niang are actually the same age as Shaq), but they all had much better track records as shooters and demonstrated a much higher level of BBIQ. You could see early on how they could fit into a team without disrupting things.

Oni is wayyy higher in priority to dedicate resources and playing time to.
 
idiot said:
Maybe so. I don't know if we've seen him enough in a situation where he's not the PG to know if his catch-and-shoot jumper is that much of a liability. I think his best individual pairing is perhaps with Donovan. Donovan can handle the ball all he wants; Shaq can pick up the scraps from a scrambling defense and provide just a bit of secondary ballhandling; and they can be more or less interchangeable in who they guard defensively.
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I think we've seen enough to know that he's a bad shooter. He's been a horrific shooter basically his whole career. Low volume, very low percentages. 29% in the NBA. 31% in the G-League. 22% in college. Let me tell you, he's not taking these shots off the dribble out of PnR. These are basically all open for a reason shots.

He did had a two game stretch where he went 8/9 last season....but you're a fool if you think that he can shoot because of that.
 
I wish we had Neto as our 3rd PG. Even NWG looked better than Shaq. I've never seen a worse PG on offense. No way you can play him meaningful minutes the way he has been playing. If he continues playing like this, I wouldn't be surprised if the Jazz waive him.
 
I tried to send up the red flags when this board was pining for him. His GLeague stats and waived by two non-playoff teams give pause. He looks to me to be a Trevon Bluiett that can't shoot.
 
Yeah, I was surprised by how he's been used as well. I thought he'd be our 3rd point guard. We seem to drift towards position-less basketball, but as much as possible that's what the Jazz are doing - we seem to have one true position - our Goalie, or Center.

At this point, I'd say our 2nd point guard is Joe Ingles. Our 3rd point guard is Miye Oni. I would have guess it'd be Shaq Harrison or even Yogi Ferrell, but Trent seems above Yogi in the rotation - which I also find surprising.
 
Joncolton said:
Yeah, I was surprised by how he's been used as well. I thought he'd be our 3rd point guard. We seem to drift towards position-less basketball, but as much as possible that's what the Jazz are doing - we seem to have one true position - our Goalie, or Center.

At this point, I'd say our 2nd point guard is Joe Ingles. Our 3rd point guard is Miye Oni. I would have guess it'd be Shaq Harrison or even Yogi Ferrell, but Trent seems above Yogi in the rotation - which I also find surprising.
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We would have to sign Yogi to a 10 day contract and Trent is on a two-way so there are no added costs to recalling him at this juncture.
 
homeytennis said:
We would have to sign Yogi to a 10 day contract and Trent is on a two-way so there are no added costs to recalling him at this juncture.
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Financial aspects aside, and I don't think the new owner is counting pennies this way. The Jazz must have reasoned that Trent is better at helping them - WIN NOW. That's surprising to me.
 
Shaq isn’t going to play any meaningful minutes at PG. that’s not his role or strength. If he plays minutes, it’s not as third PG but as a defender. Think Exum role when they started playing him exclusively as a bench defensive wing.

Watching him in garbage time is worthless. I don’t care about how he’ll run an offense because he never will.
 
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