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Life After DWill and Melo: How have Jazz/Nuggz fared?

Core4 said:
I'm not sure that article really had a point.


*much like this post
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It reads like an article I wrote for the school paper where I finished the article with a counterpoint and my teacher dinged me for not having a point (and he was right).
 
On face value, the Jazz lost the Utah/Brooklyn and Den/NY trades. Big time.

Hopefully Favors and Kanter and Burke change that, but right now, Utah is miles behind on that trade and got taken big time.
 
For this article to have any validity you have to assume Carmelo and Deron are equal assets.

I'm fairly certain if right now you offered up either player to every team in the league about 25 of them would pick Carmelo.

The Nuggets "won" this trade by getting a better offer from The Knicks than from The Nets - The Jazz don't fit into the equation.
 
The article seemed like it was building to something then hit the magic number of words and stopped. I want to see the last 2/3rds of the article where the author makes his point.
 
green said:
On face value, the Jazz lost the Utah/Brooklyn and Den/NY trades. Big time.

Hopefully Favors and Kanter and Burke change that, but right now, Utah is miles behind on that trade and got taken big time.
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This is simply not true. We were able to move a contract problem (DWill on a Max Contract) for young big man assets + capspace. Essentially it is the same deal that Memphis got that has worked for them (I would argue that Gasol was a better player than Deron, however.) Also we ended up with 2 prospects and they got one. As far as tanking right away, that wasn't going to happen with Al or Millsap on the roster. Ideally we would have found a way to scrap them (and we tried), but with the new CBA there just wasn't going to be the value that we wanted. I don't subscribe to the fact that the Jazz thought they were building a contender on the fly while competing. That's not why you bring in Dennis Lindsey.

The strokes of bad luck were the Tankers not giving us the pick that would become Harrison Barnes, the details of the new CBA, and our inability to get asset value out of our vet bigs greater than the value of their capspace. This set us back a year. The plan "b" however isn't bad at all.

If Deron were still here people would be biching about him and his contract just like they did AK. Instead we have Favors, Kanter, half a Burke, and flexibility capwise with no danger of doing something stupid like maxing a point guard who isn't even in the top 3 of point guards.
 
framer said:
This is simply not true. We were able to move a contract problem (DWill on a Max Contract) for young big man assets + capspace. Essentially it is the same deal that Memphis got that has worked for them (I would argue that Gasol was a better player than Deron, however.) Also we ended up with 2 prospects and they got one. As far as tanking right away, that wasn't going to happen with Al or Millsap on the roster. Ideally we would have found a way to scrap them (and we tried), but with the new CBA there just wasn't going to be the value that we wanted. I don't subscribe to the fact that the Jazz thought they were building a contender on the fly while competing. That's not why you bring in Dennis Lindsey.

The strokes of bad luck were the Tankers not giving us the pick that would become Harrison Barnes, the details of the new CBA, and our inability to get asset value out of our vet bigs greater than the value of their capspace. This set us back a year. The plan "b" however isn't bad at all.

If Deron were still here people would be biching about him and his contract just like they did AK. Instead we have Favors, Kanter, half a Burke, and flexibility capwise with no danger of doing something stupid like maxing a point guard who isn't even in the top 3 of point guards.
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I don't know if I was clear or not. Sorry. I meant if the NBA ended today and you had to evaluate that trade. In that case, the Jazz got hosed. Hopefully Favors, Kanter and Burke blow up and we look the victors in five years.
 
framer said:
The strokes of bad luck were the Tankers not giving us the pick that would become Harrison Barnes, the details of the new CBA, and our inability to get asset value out of our vet bigs greater than the value of their capspace. This set us back a year. The plan "b" however isn't bad at all.
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Agree. The GS tank was a huge hit. Instead of getting a lottery pick, we got one back in the 20's. Had the Jazz drafted Barnes, I think they would have made the playoffs last year as the 6th seed over Houston and the Lakers. Maybe even 5th over GS too. With that kind of success and line-up, i think DL would have gone in a different direction this summer. IMO, we'd be looking at a lineup of Favors, Kanter, Barnes, Hayward and likely Mo Williams. Jazz may have pursued Bledsoe at the deadline or in free agency, or a backup like Calderon. Foye might have returned. DMC may have been brought back.

Short-term: Jazz better off. 5th/6th seed last year; likely the same this year.
Long-term: Depends on Burke's development and who we get in the draft.

But I'm VERY certain that had the Jazz drafted Barnes, they would never have been in position to get a top-10 pick (and hopefully MUCH higher) in the historic 2014 draft.

AS for Denver, they're a mess. Ownership panicked after the playoff loss. Lost GM, fired Karl. They may be on the playoff fringe this year. I could easily see them 10-12 games worse and fighting with Portland, LA Lakers and New Orleans for the last two playoff spots. Maybe even throw Minnesota in there too. TWolves have been pretty good when healthy.
 
Denver got rid of a ball hog cancer. That's addition by subtraction.. Jazz frisked out that dwill was going leave even though he likes living in Utah for some reason.. Jazz front office freaked out and the nuggets front office handled a player who said he wasn't coming back... Favors for dwill is not even close to a fair trade. Nets raped yall. Nuggets got like 5 players.
 
From day one I've always thought it was obvious Utah got a better deal. Now, I don't see how anyone could make the argument otherwise.

Nuggets basically got Gallinari and a 2014 1st rounder.

Some of you would trade Favors and Kanter for Gallinari and a late 1st??
 
ncoloradojazz said:
Denver got rid of a ball hog cancer. That's addition by subtraction.. Jazz frisked out that dwill was going leave even though he likes living in Utah for some reason.. Jazz front office freaked out and the nuggets front office handled a player who said he wasn't coming back... Favors for dwill is not even close to a fair trade. Nets raped yall. Nuggets got like 5 players.
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Favors for d will? That was not the trade dumbass.

D will for favors, kanter, and devin harris I think..... plus I feel like there was something else that I'm forgetting.
Someone help me out
 
ncoloradojazz said:
Denver got rid of a ball hog cancer. That's addition by subtraction.. Jazz frisked out that dwill was going leave even though he likes living in Utah for some reason.. Jazz front office freaked out and the nuggets front office handled a player who said he wasn't coming back... Favors for dwill is not even close to a fair trade. Nets raped yall. Nuggets got like 5 players.
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So are you actually a fan of an NBA team?
 
Favors and Kanter haven't really been given a chance. Remember they were VERY young and raw. So we don't know what type of players we have. Perhaps in two years if they are still trying to figure it out and DW is winning a championship then you can say the Jazz lost the deal. However, if DW doesn't win a title (which is the reason he left) and Favors and Kanter blow it up then the Jazz are the clear winners.

In my opinion, an important factor that should be considered, is when the Jazz made the trade they knew they would be worse, trading DW allowed us to be in the lottery a few years which allowed the Jazz to draft better/higher picks (such as Burks/Burke). I call this roster flexibility. This should be something to consider when analyzing a trade.

Without the roster/financial flexibility, none of the moves since the trade would have been possible. Yes the trade gave us Kanter, Favors, GS pick, NJ 2nd round pick and Harris. It also made the Jazz worse temporarily so we had higher picks (Burks, Burke) and financially we were able to buy a pick (Gobert) and add the GS3 players which came with two unprotected first round picks. None of that would have been possible or at least likely to happen with keeping DW as are only "all-star". In my opinion that alone makes the Jazz a winner in this draft. The Jazz were stuck in mediocrity. Now at least they have an opportunity to build a legitimate contender.

In the end you have to look at the trade after players are done with their careers to see how it really pans out. A trade looks better only if the franchise "follow-ups" the trade with adding pieces to the team and making good decisions to finish the rebuild process. It looks like Brooklyn is the winner right now because they have brought in seasoned vets to surround DW. As of now neither team hasn't accomplished much on the court. Without all these additions the DW trade for Brooklyn would be looked at differently, so the jury is still out on Brooklyn side especially if Favors and Kanter blow up and become All-stars and lead the Jazz to a title.

No one knows what will happen this year, so the GS pick might be better than anticipated and now that the Jazz are in full rebuild mode (something that would not have happened if DW remained with the team). They may have a chance at a top pick in the 2014 draft. Just imagine if the Jazz struggle this year (very possible) and GS isn't as good as people think and miss the playoffs (not as likely but still possible -they were the sixth seed last year and it is debatable that they are that much better- add in the improvement of the Western conference/injuries).

You never know!!! I am sure the Jazz thought they were getting a great deal when they traded Gail Goodrich for some picks. One of those picks turned out to be Magic Johnson. All I am saying is that you can't judge a trade until it is fully over. If the Jazz were able to get two 2014 lotto picks and the Core5 were better than average how could you say the Jazz lost?

If DW doesn't win a title with the team he has then the trade is a failure for DW and his organization regardless of what Utah does. If Favors and Kanter turn out to be journey man, the GS pick is in the 20's and the Jazz miss out on a top 6 pick in this draft then they will be losers. There is a chance both teams could be winners or both could be losers. Right now I think the verdict is undetermined.
 
Valid points, cowhide.

I wouldn't say Brooklyn is a clear winner, though. Their primary goal was to sign DWill AND Howard. But Dwight stayed in Orlando and Brooklyn went to plan B and acquired Wallace and Johnson. That was a pretty expensive way to ensure they had a chance at keeping DWill. They weren't even close to being a contender. Now Prokhorov is throwing $180M at the team this season. Yes, he has the money...and he might be the only one who could ever afford that kind of spending. I just wonder what happens IF the Nets DON'T win a championship this season. Will Prokhorov continue to spend double what other teams do, or will the DWill era come to an unceremonious end?
 
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