Longest Thread Ever

[Red]

Had a brief read of that page Red posted as you had suggested, here is 1 account:

"4301. Dr. Simmi M STE 2/18/2017. STE 8229. From India. The same year on 27 July, suddenly in the middle of night my room got filled with something foggy and colorful at the same time. I saw Chinese Goddess Kwanyin. My son who was suffering with very high fever suddenly improved. Even he witnessed Kwanyin and he still remembers this experience quite vividly. Later, I started seeing some vibrant rainbow-colored geometrical shapes. This I came to know only last year in September that all these years I had been perceiving Flower of Life.
Exceptional STE over time with profound spiritual insights."

See, this is what I mean. Am I now to believe that the Chinese Goddess Kwanyin exists?

I'm sure you realize you need to click on the person's name to access the full account. On that page of the website are a collection of particularly insightful personal experiences. Most are Near Death Experiences, or NDE's. The one you selected is a Spiritually Transformative Experience, or STE. The woman who's experience it is did not come close to death. You could say she simply "fell" into them, sort of a spontaneous mystical experience.

It's true that many NDE's will contain elements that are contingent on the cultural background of the experiencer. The experiencer whose account you selected was Hindu at the time of those experiences. Were you to read her full account, the experience altered her prior beliefs. But that does not really answer your question. A Christian experiencing an NDE might see Christ, and not a being from another faith. This might lead one to conclude that spiritual "truths", if culturally dependent, are relative, and thus there is no such thing as an absolute spiritual truth.

Yet, I believe there is absolute truth, and it's the common elements that are to be found in those accounts that point to that "fact". I say "fact" in quotations because personal experiences like these can't just be transferred to someone else. I can't just say to you "look, I had such an experience, and you can believe me when I say there is a higher realm of existance, there is an after life, there is a purpose to our existance, there is a God, that God is Love, we are here to learn these things, we are here to grow and develop our hearts, there is only Love, all else is illusory", and then you say "I see, I understand, I believe you". But I left that link because I enjoy reading these exceptional experiences, and I know, from personal experiences, that such experiences do happen.

Now, in the era of modern medicine, it is far more common for people who have seemingly "died" to be resuscitated, and we now have more of such accounts. One could use these to bolster a belief that there is more to life then meets the eye, or one could simply blow them all off and attribute them to hallucinations brought on by oxygen deprivation to the brain. I chose the former, but that's me. I can't answer your question. But I believe exposing people to these accounts is at the very least thought provoking. For each of the accounts recorded on that page, clicking on the name will access the full account. I can't say one is more profound then another, one has more "truth" then another. These are all very personal, but I think you will find, despite the fact that cultural relativism may be reflected somewhat, there are universal truths that seem to link each and every one.

Here's a "good" one. The folks who put the website together ask experiencers a series of similar questions, and it's in their answers that common themes emerge, themes that transcend cultural relativism.

http://www.nderf.org/Experiences/1duane_s_nde.html

 

[Red]

Had a brief read of that page Red posted as you had suggested, here is 1 account:

"4301. Dr. Simmi M STE 2/18/2017. STE 8229. From India. The same year on 27 July, suddenly in the middle of night my room got filled with something foggy and colorful at the same time. I saw Chinese Goddess Kwanyin. My son who was suffering with very high fever suddenly improved. Even he witnessed Kwanyin and he still remembers this experience quite vividly. Later, I started seeing some vibrant rainbow-colored geometrical shapes. This I came to know only last year in September that all these years I had been perceiving Flower of Life.
Exceptional STE over time with profound spiritual insights."

See, this is what I mean. Am I now to believe that the Chinese Goddess Kwanyin exists?

When I was in my 20's, I embarked on an examination of the mystical traditions, the so-called inner teachings, the wisdom traditions, the perennial wisdom, called by many names, in other words, of all the world's major faiths. I read the spiritual works by devotees of Hinduism, Buddhism, Sufism, which is the mystical tradition of Islam, and Christianity, which was the faith of my parents, my upbringing. I came to believe that behind any cultural relativism, that all were speaking the same language. I was driven and inspired by the "big" questions of life. Who are we, where do we come from, where are we going? Those kind of questions. At one time, I thought I should enter the monastic life, and engage in spiritual practice, live the life of the contemplative. That did not come to pass, but I encountered many individuals from history, from many cultures, who had embarked on such a life. I thought "who knows the nature of God better then such people?". I think each would actually disagree with that assumption on my part, but, be that as it may, one I particularly liked was the German Christian mystic Meister Eckhart(c. 1260-1328). FWIW, I've here selected a number of his words, having to do with the search for God.

“Theologians may quarrel, but the mystics of the world speak the same language.”

― Meister Eckhart

“The eye through which I see God is the same eye through which God sees me; my eye and God's eye are one eye, one seeing, one knowing, one love.”
― Meister Eckhart, Sermons of Meister Eckhart

“Every creature is a word of God and is a book about God.”
― Meister Eckhart

“There is no need to look for God here or there. He is no farther away than the door of your own heart.”
― Meister Eckhart

“The less theorizing you do about God, the more receptive you are to His inpouring.”
― Meister Eckhart

“We ought not to have or let ourselves be satisfied with any thought of God. When the thought goes, our God goes with it. No, what we want is a real (subsistent) God who far transcends the thoughts of men and creatures. This God does not disappear unless we turn our back on him of our own accord. He who has God thus, in reality, has gotten God divinely; to him God is apparent in all things. Everything smacks to him of God; everywhere God’s image stares him in the face. God is gleaming in him all the time. In him there is riddance and return; the vision of his God is ever present to his mind.”
― Meister Eckhart, Meister Eckhart, from Whom God Hid Nothing: Sermons, Writings & Sayings

“Spirituality is not to be learned by flight from the world, or by running away from things, or by turning solitary and going apart from the world. Rather, we must learn an inner solitude wherever or with whomsoever we may be. We must learn to penetrate things and find God there.”
― Meister Eckhart

“I am as sure as I live that nothing is so near to me as God. God is nearer to me than I am to myself; my existence depends on the nearness and the presence of God.”
― Meister Eckhart

“Whoever possesses God in their being has Him in a divine manner, and He shines out to them in all things; for them all things taste of God and in all things it is God's image that they see.”
― Meister Eckhart

“There is no better advice on how to find God than to seek him where we left him: do now, when you cannot find God, what you did when last you had him, and then you will find him again.”
― Meister Eckhart, Selected Writings

“Now pay attention to this. God is nameless for no one can either speak of him or know him. Therefore a pagan master says that what we can know or say of the First Cause reflects ourselves more than it does the First Cause, for this transcends all speech and all understanding . . . He is being beyond being: he is a nothingness beyond being. Therefore St. Augustine says: ‘The finest thing that we can say of God is to be silent concerning him from the wisdom of inner riches.’ Be silent therefore, and do not chatter about God, for by chattering about him, you tell lies and commit a sin. If you wish to be perfect and without sin, then do not prattle about God. Also you should not wish to understand anything about God, for God is beyond all understanding. A master says: If I had a God that I could understand, I would not regard him as God. If you understand anything about him, then he is not in it, and by understanding something of him, you fall into ignorance, and by falling into ignorance, you become like an animal since the animal part in creatures is that which is unknowing. If you do not wish to become like an animal therefore, do not pretend that you understand anything of the ineffable God.”
― Meister Eckhart, Selected Writings

“May you find great value in these You may call God love, you may call God goodness. But the best name for God is compassion.”
― Meister Eckhart

 

[The Midnight]

OK thanks.

I understand there are a lot of these stories, however unless I experience these experiences myself I do have to take these stories with a grain of salt as they are subjective to the person experiencing them (and writing them, and sharing them on the internet). We don't know how truthful these people are with their stories.

And that brings me to my main point - if God is real and loving - why does he only wait to 'appear' to you only when you're about to die? Why doesn't he appear to ALL OF US right now to help guide our lives, to have a relationship with us, etc? Why only a select few gets to see him? You and Babe will always believe that 'God is real' because you've had 'an experience'. And yet millions upon millions may never know him/her.

I know the default answer would always be 'God works in mysterious ways'. But it's still bemusing to me that millions will die without ever knowing he exists (and according to some religion go straight to Hell because they did not recognize him during their lifetimes).

Why would a loving God (or Jesus) not at least meet all of us once while we're alive? It seems to me to be very contrary to his supposed nature (i.e., all loving).

 

[Red]

OK thanks.

I understand there are a lot of these stories, however unless I experience these experiences myself I do have to take these stories with a grain of salt as they are subjective to the person experiencing them (and writing them, and sharing them on the internet). We don't know how truthful these people are with their stories.

And that brings me to my main point - if God is real and loving - why does he only wait to 'appear' to you only when you're about to die? Why doesn't he appear to ALL OF US right now to help guide our lives, to have a relationship with us, etc? Why only a select few gets to see him? You and Babe will always believe that 'God is real' because you've had 'an experience'. And yet millions upon millions may never know him/her.

I know the default answer would always be 'God works in mysterious ways'. But it's still bemusing to me that millions will die without ever knowing he exists (and according to some religion go straight to Hell because they did not recognize him during their lifetimes).

Why would a loving God (or Jesus) not at least meet all of us once while we're alive? It seems to me to be very contrary to his supposed nature (i.e., all loving).

Wish I could provide an answer to those questions, but I cannot.

 

[babe]

Quick question, what is the difference between murder and killing animals for food? If we think of human as the superior being, then yes there is a difference. But if all living things are equal then aren't we 'murdering' other specifies by killing for food?


The reason I ask is this because I saw this video and it made my heart sink.





Who are we to take these calves away from their mother?

I re-watched a movie I like..... Sarah, Plain and Tall today. She made a pet of a lamb, but the coyotes got it and the buzzards were finishing it. She had a hard time accepting that.

The Bible(OT) instructs the Israelites to make animal sacrifices. After the required ritual, the priests of Levi were allowed to eat a portion of the offering, as they received no land inheritance, and were entitled to a living by their service.

God ordained meat for our use. Mormons have a little scripture that commands us not to kill if we have no need, and that meat is for times of need, and otherwise to be used sparingly. Joseph Smith was influenced, possibly, by a member herbalist who ran a store near his home in Nauvoo. A lot of people had those ideas even back then.

Man is given a stewardship, and a dominion over everything else, and is accountable to God for actions.

In that context, I do ship calves off to market..... when they're about two years old.... steers and some heifers..... I let real cowboys do that for me.

 

[The Midnight]

Wish I could provide an answer to those questions, but I cannot.

Thank you Red, I really appreciate your honest response.

 

[The Midnight]

@babe, you're drawing the line in the sand based on your faith and what the Bible said instead of being willing to have an open & objective discussion so it's really hard for me to carry on this conversation with you.

I've raised a number of theological/philosophical questions and I'm really interested in what you think outside of your faith, but all the answers are coming from 'Jesus said this, and the OT said that' line, and when you begin from that starting point sometimes that's where the conversation stops.

Thanks for the talk.

 

[babe]

well, OL specifically asked what I really believed, and it's in the Bible.

 

[babe]

new page; new topic

 

[babe]

Amazing stuff here.

Alex Jones live on his radio program began breaking down "the memo"..... the 100 page report of the congressional investigation into "the leaks" or whatever.

I heard it live. Then he literally stopped the show and got some pal to fill in for him. When he came back on, he held it up and said take a screen shot of this.... for several pages. He was given a copy.

And the "news" doesn't think that's news fit to print.

Amazing.

 

[Dr. Jones]

Amazing stuff here.

Alex Jones live on his radio program began breaking down "the memo"..... the 100 page report of the congressional investigation into "the leaks" or whatever.

I heard it live. Then he literally stopped the show and got some pal to fill in for him. When he came back on, he held it up and said take a screen shot of this.... for several pages. He was given a copy.

And the "news" doesn't think that's news fit to print.

Amazing.

You still at it?

This longest thread thing is the biggest ego stroke-job in history. Nice work. Keep it.. up.

 

[The Midnight]

well, OL specifically asked what I really believed, and it's in the Bible.

I know you do, no one is questioning that. But if you're gonna talk about love - and I am all for it - then you've got to be careful, understanding and inclusive IMO. People comes from all walks of life with different beliefs. If you're gonna connect with them you don't in the first instance throw the Bible at them, I don't think. You talk and connect with people on a human level and if they're interested in your beliefs then you tell them.

You and I have talked for a long time, and I feel comfortable enough to ask the difficult questions and to explore some of the these harder questions with you. Are you telling me all Christians have a strong faith 'all the time'? To me the journey isn't a blind faith without questions, it's 'wrestling' with doubts and getting to a higher level of understanding and getting to a level of stronger & unshakeable faith something many characters in the Bible had to do, Daniel, Job, Jacob, to name a few.

To me saying, "well the Bible said this, just read it" is well... not sufficient.