Longest Thread Ever

[babe]

And after thinking about it a little bit I realise it is not "who" you choose to inspire you, to aspire to or imitate... Why? Because no matter what you do, you can never be the exact same person of the person you wanted to be. You are totally different people, genetically at the very least.


So is it more "who is the version of you, that you want to become"? Or one might say "what is the best version of me that I can be?" Just try to visualise that..... hmmm... it's not easy!!!!


To be honest I have never really pondered that until very recently... can you imagine that? I'm 1/3 of the way to 90 and yet I have never actually pondered that. When I was in high school it was what subjects do I take to get into University. When I was at the University it was what papers do I take to get the best jobs. When I was working, it was what extra skills or connections do I need to get ahead/promoted?


Life can be so restricted. Most people are too busy trying to feed themselves or their families to even ponder....

Perfect take on it.

I realized the way we are, and the efforts it takes to fit in socially, economically, or in most any aspect of life, are real limits on almost anyone who is "normal". You have to have income at some level to maintain any stable economic life. I still have to do that. You can't just flaunt conventions and defy expectations others may have, unless you are a rock star or movie great. Only a few politicians achieve that level of independence, and for most of those few who can defy the public, they still have to stay in line with their financial backers.

I might be in error on the exact names of this anecdote. . . . but here is someone living two thousand years ago, or more. . . . who apparently had the same problem, and solved it at least partially. A Greek philosopher...... was it Socrates, or Plato. . . .????. . . . was approached by a friend who just knew life could be better. "If you'd just flatter the King, you wouldn't need to sit here and eat lentils". "Yes, my friend. But if you'd learn to eat lentils you wouldn't need to flatter the King."

Well, my customers are the Kings I need to please. . . . . even as a small-time cow producers it's the buyers who know what I should do. And I need to pay attention.

And the time I spend pondering topics such as these is still eked out of the life I have trying to earn a living, at a price.

 

[The Midnight]

OK, so another thing I've been pondering is how your perception / view of the world / how your see yourself and others, is uniquely shaped by your genetics, the country/culture/family background you grew up in, etc. Also how opportunities that are available to you is at the same time limited by this.


It is kinda amazing that you're given more or less 80-90 years to live in this "shell" that you did not even choose to begin with. You're just given it. It's kinda like being in a racetrack whereby somebody might have like a 10 min. head start on you, and somebody else might have like a 30 min. delay. Somebody might have to work their whole life just to get to the same place that somebody else started with.


I'm not questioning the fairness of it all, I just find it interesting. Also whether the world would be a more peaceful place if everyone spend a bit of time each day pondering these differences.

 

[babe]

OK, so another thing I've been pondering is how your perception / view of the world / how your see yourself and others, is uniquely shaped by your genetics, the country/culture/family background you grew up in, etc. Also how opportunities that are available to you is at the same time limited by this.


It is kinda amazing that you're given more or less 80-90 years to live in this "shell" that you did not even choose to begin with. You're just given it. It's kinda like being in a racetrack whereby somebody might have like a 10 min. head start on you, and somebody else might have like a 30 min. delay. Somebody might have to work their whole life just to get to the same place that somebody else started with.


I'm not questioning the fairness of it all, I just find it interesting. Also whether the world would be a more peaceful place if everyone spend a bit of time each day pondering these differences.

What's it like living in a shrine and wearing an orange sheet???

Those guys often have found peace within, just concentrating on ideals including accepting what is. . .

 

[The Midnight]

What's it like living in a shrine and wearing an orange sheet???

Those guys often have found peace within, just concentrating on ideals including accepting what is. . .

Yeah it was pretty peaceful. I loved it.


That is until you start questioning where it all came from, you, the earth, the Universe...

 

[babe]

OK, so another thing I've been pondering is how your perception / view of the world / how your see yourself and others, is uniquely shaped by your genetics, the country/culture/family background you grew up in, etc. Also how opportunities that are available to you is at the same time limited by this.


It is kinda amazing that you're given more or less 80-90 years to live in this "shell" that you did not even choose to begin with. You're just given it. It's kinda like being in a racetrack whereby somebody might have like a 10 min. head start on you, and somebody else might have like a 30 min. delay. Somebody might have to work their whole life just to get to the same place that somebody else started with.


I'm not questioning the fairness of it all, I just find it interesting. Also whether the world would be a more peaceful place if everyone spend a bit of time each day pondering these differences.

For myself, I don't believe we come into this life with no past. Rather, we come as we are, as we have chosen to be through perhaps millions of years of existence. This life is in a larger sense, a school. Some take a smaller view, calling it a test. If it's a test, we indeed get to make changes along our way, and learn from our experiences.

Rumor has it, we were children of a Heavenly Father, and met in a great council to hear the plan for this world. Our Father called for one of us to become our leader, and Lucifer. . . . a Son of the Morning. . . . one of the older and smarter ones among us, jumped up to volunteer. He said he would make us all be good, and bring us all back home in perfect condition. Lucifer said he would make sure we all did good, and said because he was smart enough to do all that, of course he would be great, and of course he would be glorious and worthy of all praise. God asked for another volunteer. Jesus stood up and said he would do whatever it could take to bring us home if we would choose. He said we should be free, and make our own decisions, right or wrong, and that if we made mistakes or did great evil, He would give himself a ransom for whoever would choose to come and ask for forgiveness, and he would pay the price. Jesus said he would do whatever our Father required, and that all glory should be the Father's. God said OK.

So here we receive a physical life, a body in the image of God, as children of God. We are placed in a circumstance where we can learn about the physical world, where we have a clean slate to start again as we may choose in our spiritual progress, unhampered by the past. In a way, it is a school where we receive a second chance, under significantly different circumstances. And we get to choose everything all over again, with no forced or threatened choice.

We may be in different states of progress, but while we are here we can make what progress we choose or seek, and in the end, hopefully, we may achieve something we could not have done in other circumstances.

Our years or time may vary as other circumstances, but the one essential achievement is the gift of life, the gift of a physical body which will be ours thenceforth forever, barring some extreme offense in rejecting great knowledge in rejecting further life with God, perhaps preferring Lucifer after all.

Rumor has it about a third of God's children went that way from the Council in Heaven, and some may yet be added to that number. . . .

 

[babe]

Intelligence or Will

Not many Mormons really delve into some of the early philosophical teachings of Mormonism. They're not explicitly taught much.

So the idea was that matter/energy/intelligence are eternal, being neither created or made. This is a radical departure from the Biblical understanding say in Genesis, as interpreted by Catholics or Protestants. Yet it corresponds to some scriptures which indicate a spiritual existence for humans before birth, as say in the story of Elizabeth and Mary relating to the births of John the Baptist and Jesus, who it seems knew one another before they were born. At least in terms as described by Elizabeth and Mary.

Joseph Smith said there is a fundamental essence of human life which he termed "intelligence". He indicated that it pre-existed our coming into the family of our Heavenly Father. He said it is an eternal essential thing. I understand it as the capacity of will, of choice, of volition, of action, of understanding, of learning, of actions, of a lot of stuff let's say we think rocks might not do. Though the Bible indicates even rocks could have praised Jesus on his way into Jerusalem, if the humans wouldn't. So let's just say maybe there is some class of intelligence common among humans, after the sort that our Father in Heaven has, we hope.

As I would view it, being born as children in spirit after our heavenly parents would not change our essential capacities of choice and will, and God most likely recognized our nature, and would not be one to oppress us. So He would not and could not accept a plan of force, however smart, to make us all do right somehow. He is, rather, a teacher par excellance, and virtuous to boot. It was the necessary thing to provide a way to learn, and still have a way back home, even if we make mistakes. Jesus was that necessary redeemer, and exemplar, and teacher for us in this world. The way home, the truth of God, and the giver of eternal life.

 

[babe]

A Mormon's View of Human Rights

While, regretfully, there are all kinds of Mormons, including those who love making laws and rules designed to make damn sure people do the right things, and get locked up if they mess up, there was a little ray of light in the Mormon origins in the teachings of Joseph Smith. One interesting principle was "Bad doctrine does not make a bad man", indicating that we are prone to wrong ideas even if our intentions are honorable. This is actually true of all men, and women. Probably true of idealists trying to build a new world order, intending to use government to solve all our problems. I might not think "government" is the superior solution to the problem of human learning. If we are not permitted to make mistakes, we can hardly really learn about consequences. . . . And perhaps, in the view of a God who took existing materials and made an earth, and positioned it in a favorable location, and brought all kinds of living stuff here, we are not really living on an inexpendible planet, but one that can be used, and cared for. And maybe fixed up when we do stuff that's not so good. Not that we should just be careless with it, though. Because there will be consequences from what we do.

But, actually, there is in my mind a sort of government I don't object to, but look forward to. . . . which is a lot better than a scheming clique of very ambitious and clever men could ever devise. . . .

 

[babe]

My idea of "human rights" goes back to my belief in an eternal existence, and of the capacities we had before we even knew "God". They are intrinsic to what we are, and even God considers them inviolable. So, exactly, they are not "God-given" but native, natural, intrinsic, inherent. . . . and maybe there are better words to describe them. . .. but they trace back to before we were in God's family, in any human community. . . .and they are vouchsafed by God. . . . and are only attenuated somewhat by our willing consent, by our agreement in entering into associations with others, for the purposes of securing something we value, for good reason.

We call it progress when it enhances our abilities. . . . . builds upon our capacities. . . . provides for things we could not secure reasonably by our lone selves. . . .

In a marriage, we seek some gain. We give some, too. Hopefully, there is a sort of synergism that greatly benefits all concerned.

One principle I hold with is that any organization must be judged by the product, the output. . .. what it does for others. God is in the business of serving others, of providing a path forward for those who will choose it. A good heterosexual marriage has the hope, the possibility of doing something like that for the children who might come into the family. It's a tiny operation comparable to our Heavenly Father's. . . . uhmmm. .. . and our Heavenly Mother's.

Jesus said if we keep the commandments of God, we will one day be like Him.

 

[The Midnight]

For myself, I don't believe we come into this life with no past. Rather, we come as we are, as we have chosen to be through perhaps millions of years of existence. This life is in a larger sense, a school. Some take a smaller view, calling it a test. If it's a test, we indeed get to make changes along our way, and learn from our experiences.

Rumor has it, we were children of a Heavenly Father, and met in a great council to hear the plan for this world. Our Father called for one of us to become our leader, and Lucifer. . . . a Son of the Morning. . . . one of the older and smarter ones among us, jumped up to volunteer. He said he would make us all be good, and bring us all back home in perfect condition. Lucifer said he would make sure we all did good, and said because he was smart enough to do all that, of course he would be great, and of course he would be glorious and worthy of all praise. God asked for another volunteer. Jesus stood up and said he would do whatever it could take to bring us home if we would choose. He said we should be free, and make our own decisions, right or wrong, and that if we made mistakes or did great evil, He would give himself a ransom for whoever would choose to come and ask for forgiveness, and he would pay the price. Jesus said he would do whatever our Father required, and that all glory should be the Father's. God said OK.

So here we receive a physical life, a body in the image of God, as children of God. We are placed in a circumstance where we can learn about the physical world, where we have a clean slate to start again as we may choose in our spiritual progress, unhampered by the past. In a way, it is a school where we receive a second chance, under significantly different circumstances. And we get to choose everything all over again, with no forced or threatened choice.

We may be in different states of progress, but while we are here we can make what progress we choose or seek, and in the end, hopefully, we may achieve something we could not have done in other circumstances.

Our years or time may vary as other circumstances, but the one essential achievement is the gift of life, the gift of a physical body which will be ours thenceforth forever, barring some extreme offense in rejecting great knowledge in rejecting further life with God, perhaps preferring Lucifer after all.

Rumor has it about a third of God's children went that way from the Council in Heaven, and some may yet be added to that number. . . .

Are you saying we all had a life before this life? And if so why is it that we cannot remember?

 

[babe]

Are you saying we all had a life before this life? And if so why is it that we cannot remember?

I don't know, can't remember why or the plan exactly. . . .

theoretically speaking, I imagine it may be the purpose to exercise other faculties than being a knowitall, and learn to develop say our heart, or capacity to love. . . . or to "walk by faith" as the Apostle Paul indicated. . .

I for one am glad everything is not objectively demonstrable, because then it would be too easy for tyrants to just force us to do all the good things, and unreasonable of us not to implicitly obey. Under those circumstances, we would likely be pretty monstrous creatures.

So also with a lot of life's circumstances that just make no sense, and with which we must cope at considerable hardship.

other values than smarts or perfection need to be addressed. . . .

 

[babe]

Are you saying we all had a life before this life? And if so why is it that we cannot remember?

Mormons generally won't consider "reincarnation" or repeated cycles of life a true picture of things.

It usually presents as a linear progression towards an improving condition overall. . . . .

Being an "intelligence" is a positive statement of identity. . . . something capable of cognition, perception, understanding, judgment, choice, etc etc, and maybe even love, and appreciation. . . virtues of all kinds.

Becoming a "spirit child of God" would be something like an adoption into the family of the King, into a situation where considerable improvement is augmented. . . . as well as being gifted with a sort of structure or shape, as well as a capacity to act on another level. . . . reasonably imagined to be something of tremendous import. . . . An "intelligence" might think such an attainment well-worth entering a covenantal relation with said "King".

In this line of progressive development, our birth into this world would represent another step forward of tremendous import. . . . . a gift of incalculable value. . . . with great opportunities.

I understand most of us are subject to musing about what possible purposes our lives can have, what the meaning of life is, and many similar questions. I observe that the line of development outlined above suggests that learning to manage a human body, and make good use of it, would be a considerable progressive development. . . .

 

[Jazz Insider]

in on historical thread. always wanted to be apart of history.