OKC or San Antonio?

[spycam1]

So what key pieces has Chicago added via the draft since they sneaked into the playoffs 3 years ago (with a .500 record mind you) as a 7th seed and pushed Boston to 7 games, that has now made them title contenders?

OKC was the same thing two years ago when the got in as the 8th seed.

Chicago is a big market, unlike us, and can attract good free agents, which is what they in fact did, while their young guys were developing.

OKC was starting their young core, we aren't. Like I said before, if our youngsters were leading us to the playoffs, then I would be happy.

Neither the Chicago or OKC situation (when they got the 8th seed years back) resembles how we are getting to the 8th seed.

 

[franklin]

Winning what? Regular season games? One game in the first round? Well, if you're honestly satisfied with that, then you must be a very happy man.

Would you answer my question already? This is the FOURTH time I have asked you: with the way this team is currently constructed, what do you logically view as the best method moving forward for us to become a contender?

That's been asked this entire season without answer. It finally evolved into Favors, Kanter, Burks, Hayward are the 2nd - 5th coming. It's back to winning culture blah now that neither of those 4 are sure fire All Stars.

 

[margodydek]

Chicago is a big market, unlike us, and can attract good free agents, which is what they in fact did, while their young guys were developing.

OKC was starting their young core, we aren't. Like I said before, if our youngsters were leading us to the playoffs, then I would be happy.

Neither the Chicago or OKC situation (when they got the 8th seed years back) resembles how we are getting to the 8th seed.

I get your point, but we're talking about a 13th or 14th pick here. If the discussion was between playoffs and top 5 pick, then I'd be on your side.

 

[spycam1]

I get your point, but we're talking about a 13th or 14th pick here. If the discussion was between playoffs and top 5 pick, then I'd be on your side.

That's the point...the 13th or 14th pick in this draft is like the 5th pick in a normal draft. I'm not just madly in love with this draft for no reason, every scout around the nation is, and has been for some time. If this situation was the same next year, then I would be rooting for us to make the playoffs, because a late lottery pick in that draft just isn't very good, IMO. The situation is different with this draft, and an opportunity to stockpile on talent like this won't come again. This is our window, and I'll be sad to see us miss it.

 

[margodydek]

That's the point...the 13th or 14th pick in this draft is like the 5th pick in a normal draft. I'm not just madly in love with this draft for no reason, every scout around the nation is, and has been for some time. If this situation was the same next year, then I would be rooting for us to make the playoffs, because a late lottery pick in that draft just isn't very good, IMO. The situation is different with this draft, and an opportunity to stockpile on talent like this won't come again. This is our window, and I'll be sad to see us miss it.

I guess this what our disagreement boils down to. And I've started to hear the opposite, that draft guys are starting to say, besides Davis, that this draft isn't as epic as they lead us to believe earlier.

I view this draft as I view most drafts - after about #5, it's all a crapshoot.

 

[YB85]

That's the point...the 13th or 14th pick in this draft is like the 5th pick in a normal draft. I'm not just madly in love with this draft for no reason, every scout around the nation is, and has been for some time. If this situation was the same next year, then I would be rooting for us to make the playoffs, because a late lottery pick in that draft just isn't very good, IMO. The situation is different with this draft, and an opportunity to stockpile on talent like this won't come again. This is our window, and I'll be sad to see us miss it.

I'm not buying that the 13th-14th pick is that great this year. There are some good names, but none of which really made me think "I would love to have him on the Jazz". PJ3? Austin Rivers? Jeremy Lamb? Terrence Jones? They all may turn out to be stars, but they don't excite me right now. I'll stick to hoping the Jazz make the playoffs while Golden State holds off the other tanking teams and stays in Jazz territory.

 

[mrob]

Talent wins championships. This draft has more talent in it then any draft in recent memory before it, or in any draft expected to follow it for quite some time.

Talent does win championships. The thing is that we have a lot of talent on this team. What we don't have is playoff experience. I just don't see how someone can tell me with a straight face that another 12th-13th pick in the draft is going to be the difference maker. Even in this draft. It would be just another person that needs to develop over the next few years before they can really contribute.

You say that it's just another year and we can start that championship run next year. It just doesn't work that way. There are too many moving parts in an NBA team. Salary issues. Injury issues. Performance issues. You can't put all this momentum on hold and say "Next year is the year".

I would like to challenge you to come up with an example where this has worked for a team to tank their way to a championship. You believe that we should sacrifice our current success (or chance of success) for a possibility of a good player that becomes the difference maker. I assume if you're willing to root for your own team to lose that you must have some solid evidence that this works.

My recollection of championship teams are ones that do their due diligence and improve year after year until they get a chance at a championship.

 

[spycam1]

I guess this what our disagreement boils down to. And I've started to hear the opposite, that draft guys are starting to say, besides Davis, that this draft isn't as epic as they lead us to believe earlier.

I view this draft as I view most drafts - after about #5, it's all a crapshoot.

I agree that the talent at the top of the draft, other than Davis, doesn't look as good as people were expecting. But as far as the depth of the 2012 draft goes, it's still remarkable, IMO. Worst case scenario, for me at least, with that 14th pick is Jeremy Lamb. Do most drafts have 13 players who are legitimately better than Jeremy Lamb?

 

[margodydek]

Talent does win championships. The thing is that we have a lot of talent on this team. What we don't have is playoff experience. I just don't see how someone can tell me with a straight face that another 12th-13th pick in the draft is going to be the difference maker. Even in this draft. It would be just another person that needs to develop over the next few years before they can really contribute.

You say that it's just another year and we can start that championship run next year. It just doesn't work that way. There are too many moving parts in an NBA team. Salary issues. Injury issues. Performance issues. You can't put all this momentum on hold and say "Next year is the year".

I would like to challenge you to come up with an example where this has worked for a team to tank their way to a championship. You believe that we should sacrifice our current success (or chance of success) for a possibility of a good player that becomes the difference maker. I assume if you're willing to root for your own team to lose that you must have some solid evidence that this works.

My recollection of championship teams are ones that do their due diligence and improve year after year until they get a chance at a championship.

It's an anomaly, but San Antonio basically held off bringing Robinson back from injury which helped them land Duncan, thus starting a dynasty.

 

[margodydek]

I agree that the talent at the top of the draft, other than Davis, doesn't look as good as people were expecting. But as far as the depth of the 2012 draft goes, it's still remarkable, IMO. Worst case scenario, for me at least, with that 14th pick is Jeremy Lamb. Do most drafts have 13 players who are legitimately better than Jeremy Lamb?

Maybe you know something that I don't, but to be honest, I have no idea how good Jeremy Lamb can be. I think he could be great, but I also think he could be the 2nd coming of Jerryd Bayless.

 

[spycam1]

Talent does win championships. The thing is that we have a lot of talent on this team. What we don't have is playoff experience. I just don't see how someone can tell me with a straight face that another 12th-13th pick in the draft is going to be the difference maker. Even in this draft. It would be just another person that needs to develop over the next few years before they can really contribute.

You say that it's just another year and we can start that championship run next year. It just doesn't work that way. There are too many moving parts in an NBA team. Salary issues. Injury issues. Performance issues. You can't put all this momentum on hold and say "Next year is the year".

I would like to challenge you to come up with an example where this has worked for a team to tank their way to a championship. You believe that we should sacrifice our current success (or chance of success) for a possibility of a good player that becomes the difference maker. I assume if you're willing to root for your own team to lose that you must have some solid evidence that this works.

My recollection of championship teams are ones that do their due diligence and improve year after year until they get a chance at a championship.

Almost every team that wins a title drafted their most important players. And certainly all small market teams that have won it all did.

I think we can agree that our current situation is different than the situation of most other past and current lottery teams. What I mean is that we already have a lot of young talent that we hope pans out, unlike your average lottery team. So when I envision our four youngsters developing, I see a very strong core, but I don't see them bringing home any rings--there are a few holes that need to be filled in order to get over that hump into contender status. So when I say that I believe we can get a "difference maker" at the end of the lottery, I'm not expecting us to get a superstar by any means, I just think we can get someone good enough to fill the holes, like say Austin Rivers, Kendall Marshall etc. Like do you think the Mavs would have won last year without Terry, Chandler, and so on? I'm not arguing that we're going to get the face of the franchise with that pick, just that we can get a "Terry" or "Chandler" that will get us over the hump. But unlike Dallas, history has taught me that free agency is much less likely to bring us a "Chandler" and the draft is our best rout. I wouldn't say that about most drafts, but I will about this one.

It all comes down to a few questions:

1. Do you believe that our young core is good enough to win a title in the future?

If you answered yes, then ok, we're obviously not on the same page. But if you answered no, then the next question is:

2. How do you expect to acquire the pieces in order to get over that hump?

My answer is that we have a better chance through the draft than through blockbuster trades, due to the seemingly timid front office when it comes to that sort of thing (note another year of 0 trades), and it's certainly a better method than hoping quality free agents come to a small market like Utah. So the next question is:

3. What is the best draft to acquire the pieces you supposedly need to get over that hump? (especially if you are expecting to be picking at the end of the lottery)

My answer? The 2012 draft.

 

[mrob]

It's an anomaly, but San Antonio basically held off bringing Robinson back from injury which helped them land Duncan, thus starting a dynasty.

Well, that's the rub with that example. Now, we're talking about superstars. You're talking about a player that was not only the top pick but probably the best player taken from the draft for several years during that time. We're also talking about a team that was really bad due to an injury of another superstar. Also, the Spurs hit a home run by getting Tim Duncan. We wouldn't be having the same discussion if they had gotten any other player from that draft lottery.

And, not to minimize the affect of having Tim Duncan, but their other "big two" are a 28th pick and a 57th pick in their respective drafts ... which actually goes more to the point I'm making. The draft is a crapshoot. Win if you can because you are guaranteed nothing in the draft.

 

[YB85]

And, not to minimize the affect of having Tim Duncan, but their other "big two" are a 28th pick and a 57th pick in their respective drafts ... which actually goes more to the point I'm making. The draft is a crapshoot. Win if you can because you are guaranteed nothing in the draft.

*grumbles about Raul Lopez*

 

[margodydek]

Almost every team that wins a title drafted their most important players. And certainly all small market teams that have won it all did.

I think we can agree that our current situation is different than the situation of most other past and current lottery teams. What I mean is that we already have a lot of young talent that we hope pans out, unlike your average lottery team. So when I envision our four youngsters developing, I see a very strong core, but I don't see them bringing home any rings--there are a few holes that need to be filled in order to get over that hump into contender status. So when I say that I believe we can get a "difference maker" at the end of the lottery, I'm not expecting us to get a superstar by any means, I just think we can get someone good enough to fill the holes, like say Austin Rivers, Kendall Marshall etc. Like do you think the Mavs would have won last year without Terry, Chandler, and so on? I'm not arguing that we're going to get the face of the franchise with that pick, just that we can get a "Terry" or "Chandler" that will get us over the hump. But unlike Dallas, history has taught me that free agency is much less likely to bring us a "Chandler" and the draft is our best rout. I wouldn't say that about most drafts, but I will about this one.

It all comes down to a few questions:

1. Do you believe that our young core is good enough to win a title in the future?

If you answered yes, then ok, we're obviously not on the same page. But if you answered no, then the next question is:

2. How do you expect to acquire the pieces in order to get over that hump?

My answer is that we have a better chance through the draft than through blockbuster trades, due to the seemingly timid front office when it comes to that sort of thing (note another year of 0 trades), and it's certainly a better method than hoping quality free agents come to a small market like Utah. So the next question is:

3. What is the best draft to acquire the pieces you supposedly need to get over that hump? (especially if you are expecting to be picking at the end of the lottery)
My answer? The 2012 draft.

I would have said 1984

 

[freakazoid]

God, when did our fans become some whiny *******? You all need to man the **** up and stop cowering in the corner pissing yourself like a three-year old terrified of what's under his bed.

It cracks me up to hear all the hyperbole and bull **** about how making the playoffs will somehow define this team as winners. We're talking about a Jazz team that has a worse road record than the Warriors, who's FO has been TRYING to lose for half the season. Let that **** sink in for a moment. That's right, a team that has been trying to lose, actually has a 1/2 game lead over the Jazz in road record. Just because the NBA has a 16 team playoff format, doesn't mean all those teams belong in the post season. No doubt, if Stern decided to expand the playoffs to 22 teams, some dumbass Bobcats fan would be preaching the same cardboard cutout arguments being made on this board about how the playoff fairy sprinkles her magic dust on their team, and therefore turns them into something they're not. A good team.

Barely squeaking into the 8th seed was a worse case scenario that many of us have been concerned over since the beginning of the season. Honestly, it completely baffles me that anyone doesn't understand why that is. Getting those two picks as trade assets going into the offseason would have been HUGE in taking the next step for this team .Not only that, but KOC isn't likely to be trading any of our starters if he thinks we can just build on what we now have, which in reality, is a mediocre team at best. To me, that means we're almost guaranteed to repeat this magnificent accomplishment again next year.

The world is full of people who are more than happy to settle in life. They know they're never going to be winners, so there's no reason to ever set their goals high. These people are losers, and they know they will always be losers, so their goal in life is to just not finish last, and they're happy. So by all means, put on your little cheerleader outfit and wave your ****ing pom poms around in delerium. Then puff out your chest, and wear your 8th place ribbon in pride, as you proudly proclaim that YOUR team is a playoff team. You'll never be a winner, but hey, at least you were good enough to qualify for the participant award.

 

[mrob]

Almost every team that wins a title drafted their most important players. And certainly all small market teams that have won it all did.

I think we can agree that our current situation is different than the situation of most other past and current lottery teams. What I mean is that we already have a lot of young talent that we hope pans out, unlike your average lottery team. So when I envision our four youngsters developing, I see a very strong core, but I don't see them bringing home any rings--there are a few holes that need to be filled in order to get over that hump into contender status. So when I say that I believe we can get a "difference maker" at the end of the lottery, I'm not expecting us to get a superstar by any means, I just think we can get someone good enough to fill the holes, like say Austin Rivers, Kendall Marshall etc. Like do you think the Mavs would have won last year without Terry, Chandler, and so on? I'm not arguing that we're going to get the face of the franchise with that pick, just that we can get a "Terry" or "Chandler" that will get us over the hump. But unlike Dallas, history has taught me that free agency is much less likely to bring us a "Chandler" and the draft is our best rout. I wouldn't say that about most drafts, but I will about this one.

It all comes down to a few questions:

1. Do you believe that our young core is good enough to win a title in the future?

If you answered yes, then ok, we're obviously not on the same page. But if you answered no, then the next question is:

2. How do you expect to acquire the pieces in order to get over that hump?

My answer is that we have a better chance through the draft than through blockbuster trades, due to the seemingly timid front office when it comes to that sort of thing (note another year of 0 trades), and it's certainly a better method than hoping quality free agents come to a small market like Utah. So the next question is:

3. What is the best draft to acquire the pieces you supposedly need to get over that hump? (especially if you are expecting to be picking at the end of the lottery)

My answer? The 2012 draft.

What I don't agree with is that the draft is a holy grail. If you want to just go on draft picks, we have a #5 and a #15 for veterans and then #3, #3, #9, and #12. And, that doesn't even include one of our best players in Paul Milsap.

You say that 2012 is THE draft ... the one we can't miss out on. Well, I'm highly sceptical. Pop up wikipedia and look at every draft for the last 20 years. There are more busts than success stories if you want to talk about difference makers. I have a hard time believing this one will be be much better. Maybe a little, but I think a few years down the line, the difference won't be a significant as you think. And, it certainly won't be much different in the range we would look to be drafting anyway.

What this team needs is a proven commodity that can hit some outside shots. They don't have to be a superstar or even a star for that matter. We have a great offensive team that is only going to get better, but we need to be able to spread the floor and be respected at the 3 ... and do it on a consistent basis. We have players we can move if needed. We have free agents we can pursue. Maybe we aren't going to land an all star, but we definitely can find someone serviceable in that position.

Other than that, we just need experience. It does sound like I have a lot more faith in these guys than you do. I think we have some excellent talent and definitely enough for a championship. We just need to let them reach that championship form ... starting with this year's playoffs.

 

[YB85]

The world is full of people who are more than happy to settle in life. They know they're never going to be winners, so there's no reason to ever set their goals high. These people are losers, and they know they will always be losers, so their goal in life is to just not finish last, and they're happy. So by all means, put on your little cheerleader outfit and wave your ****ing pom poms around in delerium. Then puff out your chest, and wear your 8th place ribbon in pride, as you proudly proclaim that YOUR team is a playoff team. You'll never be a winner, but hey, at least you were good enough to qualify for the participant award.

So you'd rather have a 9th place ribbon?

 

[franklin]

I get your point, but we're talking about a 13th or 14th pick here. If the discussion was between playoffs and top 5 pick, then I'd be on your side.

The problem is these are the exact same arguments being offered up after 20 games when the Jazz had a chance to move either Big Al or Harris and take a shot at not only the #5, but putting one more cushion underneath a GSW tank. Just because it's now a 13-14 pick instead of a top 5 doesn't change the essence of the argument. It makes it easier to take that playoff side but it does not alter the fact that this team is not good enough to contend in 3-4 years and the Jazz are not going to draw a superstar to get it done.

You say that 2012 is THE draft ... the one we can't miss out on. Well, I'm highly sceptical. Pop up wikipedia and look at every draft for the last 20 years. There are more busts than success stories if you want to talk about difference makers. I have a hard time believing this one will be be much better. Maybe a little, but I think a few years down the line, the difference won't be a significant as you think. And, it certainly won't be much different in the range we would look to be drafting anyway.

Then pop up the championship rosters and see that nearly every team had a top pick leading them. MJ, Shaq, and Duncan account for most the titles in the last 20 years. Teams don't build through the draft because these three guys ate every other team's draft pick for lunch.

The counter to this is the top notch players would leave Utah. Well, they aren't signing here either so I guess we're perpetually ****ed by the no draft argument.

 

[freakazoid]

So you'd rather have a 9th place ribbon?

When it comes with a better prize, yes. Magic dust from the playoff fairy actually does have value, but I'm not sold on this team being in a position where they need to just make some minor tweaks to improve. Not at all.



P.S. Just for fun, here's another tidbit on who we are as a team. Utah played 3 games this year against teams on the third night of a back to back to back, and lost all three games. Go team.

 

[utahquad]

I am sorry people, I just think anyone wanting their team to lose so they can get picks has no clue. Do you all think that Minnesota says every year, "lets just keep tanking and collecting more and more high picks that do nothing for us since we keep losing anyways". How has that worked for Charlotte, Minnesota, and even Cleveland now... those teams suck, have sucked, and will continue to suck. The only way they will get out of the cellar is to make moves financially to get some stars in there. But their management is lacking the intelligence to do so, or the ownership who will spend tons of money to get stars. How many teams has tanking worked for in the history of the NBA draft, maybe two? I know it worked for the Spurs, who got Duncan, but other than that, no team has become an intant success from the draft. Even Durant took several years to transform his franchise into something that makes the playoffs regularly now.

As a season ticket holder, someone who pays a lot of money every year to watch the team, I feel like I have a right to expect the best basketball, and given what this season was predicted to be, I am more than proud of the Jazz for their performance. I think that with another year with this core could be incredible. If we lose CJ and trade Raja as an expiring, we would be able to fill in some slots, and maintain the rest of our core as is. There is a reason they call the low draft a Lottery, and its not totally that a team can win huge with a top pick. How is Washington with John Wall, or Cleveland with Kyrie Irving? These guys were drooled over and "won" in the lottery, yet their teams still suck, and will continue to suck for some time. Develop what we have, add some minor pieces in the off season, and we could be a force. Anything else, trying to base our future on an unknown pick versus what we have now, is stupid!

As for who would we rather face, I honestly think we could beat the Spurs in a series. The strategy just means running in transition as often as possible. I think OKC could be deadly and would rather avoid them if possible. In my personal opinion, people who actually want the team to lose just to take a shot in the dark, are clueless!