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Perhaps this is the defining moment for Hayward

zbone said:
On the next play Stockton would crack Delante's ribs if only Malone wouldn't get his elbows first on him. That's where difference is.
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In Stockton and Malone's day, it wouldn't get them a season long suspension. Really bad comparison. Just because you don't cripple another person for a chump move doesn't make you soft. In fact, it makes you tough, mentally tough, which is the most important kind. This is also a sign of leadership, because he's leading by example and teaching his teammates to rise above immaturity by giving in to their attempt to get in your head.

All of this talk of leadership is ridiculous. The Jazz are being built to lead by committee, a la some of the most successful teams of the last fifteen years. You don't need one guy to take over everything to become leaders, you need good players that compliment each other, get others involved, and lead by example. Hayward does all of those things. He doesn't need to be our one and only leader to earn his money.
 
My2Cents said:
FWIW I don't think Stockton would have responded any differently to Delonte West and he was one of the toughest guys who ever played.
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No effing way...Stockton may have been a quiet person but he didn't take **** from anyone. But nice try in attempting to justify Hayward's pussiness.

Watch the 0:15 mark...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W25t7wXLVfw
 
Dtol17 said:
In Stockton and Malone's day, it wouldn't get them a season long suspension. Really bad comparison. Just because you don't cripple another person for a chump move doesn't make you soft. In fact, it makes you tough, mentally tough, which is the most important kind. This is also a sign of leadership, because he's leading by example and teaching his teammates to rise above immaturity by giving in to their attempt to get in your head.

All of this talk of leadership is ridiculous. The Jazz are being built to lead by committee, a la some of the most successful teams of the last fifteen years. You don't need one guy to take over everything to become leaders, you need good players that compliment each other, get others involved, and lead by example. Hayward does all of those things. He doesn't need to be our one and only leader to earn his money.
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I'm sorry but I think standing up for yourself and your teammates shows leadership. Walking away from contact or allowing others to bully you and humiliate you on the court without doing anything is a sign of weakness. I'm also sure that Ostertag didn't earn any respect either when he was bitch slapped by Shaq. It more or less showed he is afraid and will back down from contact in my opinion.


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akirac73 said:
No effing way...Stockton may have been a quiet person but he didn't take **** from anyone. But nice try in attempting to justify Hayward's pussiness.

Watch the 0:15 mark...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W25t7wXLVfw
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Did you watch the whole video? Stockton apologizes for reacting that was saying it is not his character.
 
orangello said:
Did you watch the whole video? Stockton apologizes for reacting that was saying it is not his character.
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Are you kidding?

Stockton's on the court character was very feisty. I don't think him pushing somebody on the court was an isolated incident.

I am sure he was very sorry after the game. But if the same situation happened again, he would have don't the same thing.
 
Qman said:
Are you kidding?

Stockton's on the court character was very feisty. I don't think him pushing somebody on the court was an isolated incident.

I am sure he was very sorry after the game. But if the same situation happened again, he would have don't the same thing.
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I'm telling you what he said. I wasn't expressing any sort of opinion on the matter. Just sharing the words of the Almighty Stockton.
 
Shocker00 said:
I'm sorry but I think standing up for yourself and your teammates shows leadership. Walking away from contact or allowing others to bully you and humiliate you on the court without doing anything is a sign of weakness. I'm also sure that Ostertag didn't earn any respect either when he was bitch slapped by Shaq. It more or less showed he is afraid and will back down from contact in my opinion.


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This
 
Shocker00 said:
I'm sorry but I think standing up for yourself and your teammates shows leadership. Walking away from contact or allowing others to bully you and humiliate you on the court without doing anything is a sign of weakness. I'm also sure that Ostertag didn't earn any respect either when he was bitch slapped by Shaq. It more or less showed he is afraid and will back down from contact in my opinion.


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Or, rather than stooping to the level of somebody who isn't worth your time, you can respond with your game. If Hayward got worked up over all of the Delonte Wests in the world, then they win. Inferior players pull crap like that because they don't have the talent or ability to keep up with them on the floor. If you allow every one of them to get in your head and cause you to lash out physically, then you've got an incredibly weak psyche, and you deserve to be off the floor, which you assuredly will be.
 
Dtol17 said:
Or, rather than stooping to the level of somebody who isn't worth your time, you can respond with your game. If Hayward got worked up over all of the Delonte Wests in the world, then they win. Inferior players pull crap like that because they don't have the talent or ability to keep up with them on the floor. If you allow every one of them to get in your head and cause you to lash out physically, then you've got an incredibly weak psyche, and you deserve to be off the floor, which you assuredly will be.
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You act like your trying to protect players of Jordan, Bryant, Durrant, or James level. Sorry to burst your bubble but Hayward is just an average to slightly above player in the Nba. Besides there is smart ways to retaliate and stupid ways to retaliate but to sit there and do nothing makes you look like a coward. Acting like a coward is exact opposite of being a leader in my opinion. I would like to see him pick up a technical in that case and try to fire up his teammates by showing some emotion.


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orangello said:
I'm telling you what he said. I wasn't expressing any sort of opinion on the matter. Just sharing the words of the Almighty Stockton.
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Of course Stockton would say something classy like that "AFTER" the game, what did you expect him to say?..."Umm, I hate David Robinson, I wish I knocked his skinny *** on the ground harder"?

In the heat of battle, people will either fight or laydown. Stockton is/was a fighter, Hayward goes into the fetal position. It is what it is...
 
Do the Jazz need Hayward to be the team leader to be successful?
Does Gordon need to be a team leader to be successful?

I'd say no to both questions. So he's not going to react by going after someone's head. Big deal. If we want to use ONE moment to define who he is/is not, then let's also call him a superstar for his game against OKC when he went mano-a-mano with Durant and carried Utah on his shoulders in the 4th quarter. It was a dominant Jordan/Lebron-esque performance.

I hate Hayward's contract. I hate it even more than I hated AK's. But I understand why the Jazz matched. I also understand Hayward is likely going to opt out at the end of 3 years to negotiate a new deal with either Utah or another team. But since the Jazz DO have him for at least 3 years (barring a trade), I think he's going to be very, very good in Quin's system. That said, I'm also expecting 3-years of bitching about his contract vs. his contribution. Why? Because I think this team will be very much like the SA Spurs: no one is going to get >30 mins/per and the scoring and assists will be spread out due to the motion offense. For me, I'm really not concerned about total pts/rbds/assists. I'm hoping the Jazz utilize so many weapons on the court that Hayward's aggregate numbers aren't all that different from last year. But what I do expect is his shooting stats to be near the 45%/40% range, with mins per game dropping to around 30 (barring significant injuries to other wings like Hood and Burks).
 
Core4 said:
Do the Jazz need Hayward to be the team leader to be successful?
Does Gordon need to be a team leader to be successful?

I'd say no to both questions. So he's not going to react by going after someone's head. Big deal. If we want to use ONE moment to define who he is/is not, then let's also call him a superstar for his game against OKC when he went mano-a-mano with Durant and carried Utah on his shoulders in the 4th quarter. It was a dominant Jordan/Lebron-esque performance.

I hate Hayward's contract. I hate it even more than I hated AK's. But I understand why the Jazz matched. I also understand Hayward is likely going to opt out at the end of 3 years to negotiate a new deal with either Utah or another team. But since the Jazz DO have him for at least 3 years (barring a trade), I think he's going to be very, very good in Quin's system. That said, I'm also expecting 3-years of bitching about his contract vs. his contribution. Why? Because I think this team will be very much like the SA Spurs: no one is going to get >30 mins/per and the scoring and assists will be spread out due to the motion offense. For me, I'm really not concerned about total pts/rbds/assists. I'm hoping the Jazz utilize so many weapons on the court that Hayward's aggregate numbers aren't all that different from last year. But what I do expect is his shooting stats to be near the 45%/40% range, with mins per game dropping to around 30 (barring significant injuries to other wings like Hood and Burks).
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As Locke said, if Hayward opts out that is a good thing, it means we probably got our money's worth out of him for 3 years.
 
The Thriller said:
How the hell do you give max money to a guy who isn't a leader?
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He isn't worth max money regardless, but I don't really know if he's a leader. I think you'd have to spend time around the team to know that. He's clearly not a vocal leader, but there are other ways to lead. I expect him to help establish and perpetuate standards of professional conduct and work ethic. I expect max money effort every night. I want his play to motivate the other guys on the floor to play harder. Effort is contagious. Maybe that's leading by example, but I think he can contribute to leadership without being vocal.
 
My2Cents said:
He isn't worth max money regardless, but I don't really know if he's a leader. I think you'd have to spend time around the team to know that. He's clearly not a vocal leader, but there are other ways to lead. I expect him to help establish and perpetuate standards of professional conduct and work ethic. I expect max money effort every night. I want his play to motivate the other guys on the floor to play harder. Effort is contagious. Maybe that's leading by example, but I think he can contribute to leadership without being vocal.
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Has Hayward ever been recognized as being any of those things?
 
JazzTalk said:
Was he that type of leader with Bulter? I am sincerely asking cause I don't know.
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Not that I know of.

And more importantly, he hasn't been a leader in any sense in his time in Utah. Giving max money to a player you "hope" can "develop" into a leader isn't recommended IMO.
 
The Thriller said:
Not that I know of.

And more importantly, he hasn't been a leader in any sense in his time in Utah. Giving max money to a player you "hope" can "develop" into a leader isn't recommended IMO.
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Do the Jazz "hope" he can "develop" into a leader?
Does he need to?

Maybe all they expect is a guy who can run the floor, make plays and average around 18/5/5. And they didn't give him max money; they matched an offer. I don;t care if Hayward is out there getting in the face of opponents and his teammates. If he can be the player he was a couple of years ago (45%/40%), that's all the Jazz need. Is that "worth" his contract? No. But to let him walk for nothing is the way of the Clippers when they were the joke of the league. He's around for 3 years, maybe 4; Jazz have plenty of room under the luxury tax. And with the cap increasing, he has a tradeable contract if it comes to that.
 
My2Cents said:
He isn't worth max money regardless, but I don't really know if he's a leader. I think you'd have to spend time around the team to know that. He's clearly not a vocal leader, but there are other ways to lead. I expect him to help establish and perpetuate standards of professional conduct and work ethic. I expect max money effort every night. I want his play to motivate the other guys on the floor to play harder. Effort is contagious. Maybe that's leading by example, but I think he can contribute to leadership without being vocal.
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This is quite hilarious...what exactly is Hayward's work ethic? If he truly is busting his butt in practice and/or in the offseason, why is it that we don't see any tangible improvements in his game? After 4 seasons in the league, he is bascially the same player he was as a rookie. Do players with a strong work ethic remain stagnant during their first several seasons in the league? Honest question.
 
Here's my take. If Hayward needs this to motivate him after the ****show of a season he had last year, I pray DL trades him come December to any team with lots of money clamoring for him. Which is nobody but a man can wish, can't he?

IMO, he stunk it up last year and was still invited to tryout for FIBA which means he probably thinks he's much better than he actually is and that it was all Ty's fault and the players around him and so, he won't do everything in his power this off-season to take his game to a level it's never been, which means we'll just have the same 3rd/4th option type guy on our team for four more years.
 
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