Archaeologists and scavengers have found many silver articles in the mounds of the Ohio valley and adjacent areas, as well as amidst deep piles of old bones apparently left from some genocidal wars of long long ago. Lots of helmets, shields, rocks carved for a handhold useful in managing large boulders intended to crush skulls, lots and lots of arrowheads, spear points and such. Copper was much used as well, and there were some mines in the area. Most of the copper and silver seems to have come from a very abundant deposit in a peninsula of the Great Lakes. . . . I'm sure locals discovering these things started making up stories about the mysterious ancients. . . . but aside from some dusty academic works written in the 1800s in the libraries of New York, there's no great popular account of it all. . . .
Question About Joseph Smith
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Archaeologists and scavengers have found many silver articles in the mounds of the Ohio valley and adjacent areas, as well as amidst deep piles of old bones apparently left from some genocidal wars of long long ago. Lots of helmets, shields, rocks carved for a handhold useful in managing large boulders intended to crush skulls, lots and lots of arrowheads, spear points and such. Copper was much used as well, and there were some mines in the area. Most of the copper and silver seems to have come from a very abundant deposit in a peninsula of the Great Lakes. . . . I'm sure locals discovering these things started making up stories about the mysterious ancients. . . . but aside from some dusty academic works written in the 1800s in the libraries of New York, there's no great popular account of it all. . . .
J
JAZZGASM
Guest
Except he was convicted for glass looking in upstate NY. He used a hat with special stones in it. He looked in the hat to find treasure. The case in question involved a farmer that Smith had conned. When asked if Smith conned him, the farmer said no because Smith told him the treasure was enchanted and kept going deeper as they dug down for it. (Similar story in the bom about enchanted treasure). According to the doc and church history, he received the the plates and urum and thummim after this. Quite a coincidence he translated the book that no one else saw the exact same way. Just sayin'.
I don't believe this is accurate. Do you have a reference?
J
JAZZGASM
Guest
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Smith_and_the_criminal_justice_system
Here is an overview. Google Joseph Smith and glass looking trial to find exerpts from the trial in 1826. JS also talks about the trial in the PoGP. The BOM was translated in 1829 using the same method Smith was convicted for in 1826 (using a hat with a magic device inside). Be was charged with the same crime again but he left for Ohio. Fascinating stuff.
BENTLEY
Well-Known Member
More Mormon Bashing 
sorry
If you want a source, Fawn Brodie's name has been smeared in Mormondom, but her work seemed pretty authentic to me. Being the niece of David O. Mckay she got access to the church's vault of records, which gave birth to her bio of Smith "No Man Knows My History." It all depends on if you're willing to know the unpleasant truth or if you prefer to believe the sanitized version.
There were books written about Smith while he was alive too. "Mormonism Unveiled" has been smeared by the church as quintessential anti-mormon, but it's chock full of affidavits of people from the Smith's neighborhood. Curious to hear what their neighbors had to say about them? The LDS church with one stroke just labels all these people as "anti." "Don't read it!"
Too many accusations of fraud, coupled with all the other stuff (kinderhook plates, kirtland bank scheme, the printing press, polygamy/polyandry, etc.) and yet many members dismiss it all so easily with broad labels.
you want another book?
BH Roberts "Studies of the Book of Mormon." This is BH Roberts, people. He's one of yours. But so was Brodie. I can understand not bothering with the crap written by some other Christian sect claiming mormons have horns, but the stuff written by actual mormons should give you pause. They have intimate knowledge of our lives as mormons, which bolsters their authenticity.
An Insider's View of Mormon Origins, written by 34 year CES employee, Grant Palmer is a well written book that was written only a few years ago.
sorryIf you want a source, Fawn Brodie's name has been smeared in Mormondom, but her work seemed pretty authentic to me. Being the niece of David O. Mckay she got access to the church's vault of records, which gave birth to her bio of Smith "No Man Knows My History." It all depends on if you're willing to know the unpleasant truth or if you prefer to believe the sanitized version.
There were books written about Smith while he was alive too. "Mormonism Unveiled" has been smeared by the church as quintessential anti-mormon, but it's chock full of affidavits of people from the Smith's neighborhood. Curious to hear what their neighbors had to say about them? The LDS church with one stroke just labels all these people as "anti." "Don't read it!"
Too many accusations of fraud, coupled with all the other stuff (kinderhook plates, kirtland bank scheme, the printing press, polygamy/polyandry, etc.) and yet many members dismiss it all so easily with broad labels.
you want another book?
BH Roberts "Studies of the Book of Mormon." This is BH Roberts, people. He's one of yours. But so was Brodie. I can understand not bothering with the crap written by some other Christian sect claiming mormons have horns, but the stuff written by actual mormons should give you pause. They have intimate knowledge of our lives as mormons, which bolsters their authenticity.
An Insider's View of Mormon Origins, written by 34 year CES employee, Grant Palmer is a well written book that was written only a few years ago.
RandyForRubio
Well-Known Member
Colton, I don't mean to sound rude, but I can't ever imagine having God and Jesus appearing to you, and then calling it a minor detail of the account gets mixed up. I mean, that seems like a pretty major detail.
1832 version - Jesus Christ
1835 version - a host of angels
1835 version (in same month as above) - host of angels, pillar of fire, angelic being
1838 version (official) - God the Father and Jesus Christ
All religions and denominations have things they have to reconcile. I trouble at times with Jonah, even the ark, timelines... It's about faith not proof.
I pray to not offend but only to encourage a Christain walk that is centered on the simplicity of the love of Christ.
No walls between us as brothers in Him.
Miggs
Well-Known Member
I'd like you to expound on this and your exact thoughts here. For me personally, and I say this with all due respect, this statement seems not so thought out.
There are so many holes in every organized religious doctrine that I've never been able to reconcile. While my spiritual beliefs are present, my search for truth can never align with organized religion due to the massive inconsistencies, it's inability to adapt to modernity, and the simple fact that it was made by man.
I would be interested to hear how some of you reconcile with the cognitive dissonance required to believe these stories, yet use logic in every other aspect of life. Why do you give organized religion a "pass"? I'm genuinely curious and those who would like to share I would greatly appreciate it.
I would be interested to hear how some of you reconcile with the cognitive dissonance required to believe these stories, yet use logic in every other aspect of life. Why do you give organized religion a "pass"? I'm genuinely curious and those who would like to share I would greatly appreciate it.
I would be happy to, but only after you explain how you reconcile it seeming "not so well thought out" to you.