What's new

Sanders starting to kick some HC... whatever

as to the first point,there is actually a big urban farming movement in many large cities - - particularly in Detroit where there is ample vacant land to utilize in this fashion

But of course!! However, this only came to fruition after years of people telling the likes of Hantlers/Howard that access to fresh produce is actually ****ing important.



and many cities host Farmer's Markets during the summer/fall when growers in nearby rural areas come to sell their produce

How accessible are said Farmer's Markets to lower income families? To what extent should the federal or state governments shift subsidies away from 'cash crops' towards crops that could have dramatically recuperating effects on the health of families throughout lower-level and mid-level socioeconomic strata?


and Detroit's Eastern Market is a well-known, long-standing institution that covers several city blocks and features fresh produce, products produced locally by small entrepreneurs and helps provide an infrastructure and assistance for networking and community involvement
https://www.easternmarket.com/

It's a step towards solving some of the problems faced by lower-income, urban residents - - many of them people of color.


For sure it's a step towards it-- it's certainly something that should be appreciated. However, America's work simply isn't anywhere close to being complete. There are still millions of malnourished Americans who simply cannot access the nutrition they need, which has ramifications in literally every other sphere of their living existence. Relying on urban-farming and non-subsidized farmers visiting farmers-markets in big city areas to address the epidemic of America's malnutrition is simply wishful-thinking, and will likely tow the American healthcare system further towards bankruptcy.
 
You do realize you're being lumped in with the extreme far leftists as well as the far rightists, right?


Sarah Palin
Dalamon
Elizabeth Warren
Howard
Bernie Sanders
ElRoach
Donald Trump

There is no discernible difference in the M.O. of these types other than focus on a utopic end game. Tactics are the same, tunnel vision thinking is the same, inability to see the forest for the trees is the same. SHAKE MY HEAD.

kül.

Anyways Dala, what I'm trying to get at is these ideas people want to implement have a lot of issues that make life more difficult for the majority of the people who deal with them. And this is just one industry. You think the rest are different? Like I said, people that don't understand how industries work are the ones trying to change them, and that's a big problem.

Talking in generalizations is also a big problem, which is precisely what you did here. To dismiss someone's critique of a system simply because "people who don't understand it tend to critique it" is the sort of thinking that rolls back a nation's progress a couple of centuries.
 
Well we've made progress, you've put in some ideas worth merit, but you still failed to answer how you would replace those jobs. Would be nice to hear a response on that.

Job-loss from what? The shifting of subsidies? That would simply cause them to grow different crops. I think the farmers will be fine.

Now then, I wasn't aware corn is now unhealthy.

Subsidized corn, and the products made from it are a massive culprit behind the current state of multiple American chronic health epidemics. This is simply factual.

What else are we going to grow? Who's going to grow it? Who's going to pay for the different equipment required to plant and hsrvest these crops, or pay the extra people it takes to work them?

A shifting of subsidies will help this. There are many examples throughout literally everywhere where this has gone down hitch-free. Big-Agra lobbying is a real ****ing thing though, so legislations involving subsidy shifting will simply never occur as long as financial interests dictate American legislations.

How will we keep our land sustainable if we're pushing crops that can't grow there well?

No one is proposing this.

Speaking of seasonal eating, tell me more. What local, fresh produce can I eat when I live in a place where we have a 90 degree growing season? Last I checked, not many things grow well in below freezing weather that impacts most northern states.

Lol. Bruh. I live in a more northern, more cold climate than you do, and it is beyond ****ing easy to grow an absolute array of different fruits and vegetables. Maybe not bananas and pineapples-- but we currently have cucumbers, apples, cherries, apricots, plums, cabbage, kale, squash, carrots, shallots, onions, spinach, potatoes (list continues) growing in our garden. We can pickle the excess, and eat it over the span of winter. Turn some of the fruits into preserves. This is what families have done for centuries. Many farms have the means to either store these crops over colder seasons or simply grow them in their greenhouses. Subsidizing these farmers will only bring the cost of this produce down.

Now we should have grocery stores in places where there aren't any. Do we need to legislate that though?

We should. Otherwise, there will be poor people without healthy food. This is something I find ethically troublesome, and revolting.

And here's the other issue, most of those places are crime ridden. Are you willing to put up your own money to run a business in that type of environment? There are absolutely issues here, I don't disagree with that. I don't think that eliminating choices will have a positive economic impact though.

No **** they're crime-ridden-- so what do we do? Just ****ing ignore it? Let those communities live off of taquitos from 7-11?
 
But of course!! However, this only came to fruition after years of people telling the likes of Hantlers/Howard that access to fresh produce is actually ****ing important.






How accessible are said Farmer's Markets to lower income families? To what extent should the federal or state governments shift subsidies away from 'cash crops' towards crops that could have dramatically recuperating effects on the health of families throughout lower-level and mid-level socioeconomic strata?





For sure it's a step towards it-- it's certainly something that should be appreciated. However, America's work simply isn't anywhere close to being complete. There are still millions of malnourished Americans who simply cannot access the nutrition they need, which has ramifications in literally every other sphere of their living existence. Relying on urban-farming and non-subsidized farmers visiting farmers-markets in big city areas to address the epidemic of America's malnutrition is mply wishful-thinking, and will likely tow the American healthcare system further towards bankruptcy.

From a historic perspective, it's comitragically amusing when radicals feast on their sympathizers. Pretty much a standard trait for the revolutionary types.

Not that I'm calling you a radical or anything Moe. Just that you seem to sympathize with the leftist causes and are now being called out in this fashion.
 
Anyway Dalamon, what I was getting at is PC complaints aren't exclusive to the right wing bitchers and moaners about PC. They have there own PC community standards even if they complain about PC in the hated media of there preference.

It's the same as far leftists complaining about religion yet they push there own values forward as near to religion as you can get without having an object or book to worship. Rail on religion yet push your own version of religion [without a god] onto others.

There is no difference when it comes to those choosing a side and making a moral stand based on their religion/pc/race/etc.

Well, maybe a binary difference.
 
Anyway Dalamon, what I was getting at is PC complaints aren't exclusive to the right wing bitchers and moaners about PC. They have there own PC community standards even if they complain about PC in the hated media of there preference.

It's the same as far leftists complaining about religion yet they push there own values forward as near to religion as you can get without having an object or book to worship. Rail on religion yet push your own version of religion [without a god] onto others.

There is no difference when it comes to those choosing a side and making a moral stand based on their religion/pc/race/etc.

Well, maybe a binary difference.

Sincere question. I have seen binary used this way, similarly, a few times in the past but admit l don't get it.
Would you care to explain its meaning based on your specific sentence?
 
My point is I think you're opinions are flawed and not grounded in reality. Just stating my opinion, and not sure why you're losing your **** over it. I apologize I didn't see a response to your "get off my lawn" opinion about tech. The rest was my opinion of your opinion. Deal with it.




Sure it does, you carry opinions similar to that stereotype. Yes, you're allowed to say whatever the **** you want, I don't care. Just don't assume because you take unimaginative, status quo approaches to issues means that us lowly optimists need to bow down to your boring ideas.




Haha. I love this ****. "Utopia" is often a word used my boring conformists to describe change they are either uncomfortable with. Ending suffering, while unrealistic and never going to happen, is the ****ing goal, son. Throwing it out with the bath water because it doesn't fit within in your preconceived middle-of-the-road reality (which is complete ******** and just as unrealistic) is cynical and boarder line nihilistic. As for your ALL CAPS tempter tantrum, I do understand the situation and I like my solutions. Yes, I'm not totally educated on every issue, but neither are you, and you yelling I'm wrong...well....is just ****ing stupid.

What a bunch of nonsense. You either provide some substance along with your "this is just your opinion, dude" that I can respond to, or I'll just skip over your posts as I do DutchJazzer.
 
1) Siro saying "We're taking measures to slow down climate change" is really a rather-misleading point. Again, posters in this thread like to approach issues in a binary manner-- addressing climate change, or inhibiting economic growth for the sake of worker welfare are not binary issues. There is a spectrum of what can be done-- and it's important that we constantly use our creativity to try and hit the perfect balance on as many issues as possible. While exhausting, it is necessary

Isn't "we're going to reverse global warming" the binary approach? Please show me this realistic plan to reverse global warming. And I never said we shouldn't continue addressing the issue of climate change. I responded to the wording provided by ElRoach.

I have yet to see you respond to the actual thesis advanced by myself or others. IT IS ECONOMIC GROWTH THAT GOT US THIS FAR. To many of us, saying "inhibiting growth to help people" is an oxymoron. Living standards have continuously climbed for the vast majority of people over the last several centuries. This is an uncontroversial fact that any actually objective observer will agree on (as in economists who study the economy and the standards of living, not anthropologists who tell stories about the wonders of the noble savage). To inhibit growth is to directly cause people harm. Unless we're talking about cancer of course, which is more your area of knowledge.
 
Anyway Dalamon, what I was getting at is PC complaints aren't exclusive to the right wing bitchers and moaners about PC. They have there own PC community standards even if they complain about PC in the hated media of there preference.

It's the same as far leftists complaining about religion yet they push there own values forward as near to religion as you can get without having an object or book to worship. Rail on religion yet push your own version of religion [without a god] onto others.

There is no difference when it comes to those choosing a side and making a moral stand based on their religion/pc/race/etc.

Well, maybe a binary difference.

I think I see your point, and it's an important one-- but I don't think what I've said really goes against it that much. In my opinion, a preoccupation with being "too-PC" is a social-conservative phenomenon. That's pretty fair to say IMO.

Similarly, some ideologues on the left can set-up camp in their ideological circles and blindly advance every cause their ideology calls for. I don't think I fall in this category either. There are non-leftist issues that I can be found arguing for.
 
Isn't "we're going to reverse global warming" the binary approach?

That is a point that BP proposed, not I.

Please show me this realistic plan to reverse global warming. And I never said we shouldn't continue addressing the issue of climate change. I responded to the wording provided by ElRoach.

The plan is to try and mitigate global warming as much as possible, and as technology proceeds and our actions aggregate, maybe you can get some reversal. That makes sense-- because based on your wording, it seemed almost dismissive "ya climates a problem and we're already trying to stop it". My simply point is that there is a LOT more we can do, and stopping it at the rate we're currently stopping it at is insufficient (IMO).

I have yet to see you respond to the actual thesis advanced by myself or others. IT IS ECONOMIC GROWTH THAT GOT US THIS FAR. To many of us, saying "inhibiting growth to help people" is an oxymoron. Living standards have continuously climbed for the vast majority of people over the last several centuries. This is an uncontroversial fact that any actually objective observer will agree on (as in economists who study the economy and the standards of living, not anthropologists who tell stories about the wonders of the noble savage). To inhibit growth is to directly cause people harm. Unless we're talking about cancer of course, which is more your area of knowledge.

Lol'd @ your last sentence.

And your view is one that is held by many contemporary economists, particularly ones based in America. And yes, it makes sense-- capitalism is heretofore the best economic system ever created. It has resulted in the sustainable growth and mobility, and higher living standards of more persons than any other economic system ever proposed (mercantilism, communism, etc.).

With this said, capitalism is a broad umbrella of multiple types. While "inhibiting growth to help people" may seem oxymoronic, nearly every contemporary capitalistic economic system has measures that inhibit growth, or regulations that reduce the maximization of growth of corporations. These regulations are widely instituted in order to help people, and they have decades of proof to prove that they work. That's why laissez-faire economics is a concept that's essentially absent in the modern world. While it may seem oxymoronic, it is simply something that already exists.


Ultimately, the question becomes this: who is economic growth really benefitting? Are the benefits disproportionate? Is there anyway we can preserve the benefits of a 'freer' economy, preserve economic growth enough, while maybe finding a way to distribute the benefits more evenly across socioeconomic strata? Again, measures that do this are already instated. These questions are not radical. However, like I said earlier: everything exists on a spectrum. Different nations have different responses to these questions, and some nations have taken more dramatic measures than the States have. Fortunately for them, some have largely been a success-- which begs the question of why doesn't the US follow suit?
 
...How accessible are said Farmer's Markets to lower income families? To what extent should the federal or state governments shift subsidies away from 'cash crops' towards crops that could have dramatically recuperating effects on the health of families throughout lower-level and mid-level socioeconomic strata?

In Chicago, which has decent public transportation, the several Farmer's Markets in the city and in the inner-ring suburbs are located with convenient access to public transit - as are the ares where many lower-income familes reside.

In Detroit, there is a neighborhood initiative to bring the "market" to the neighborhood - Detroit has a very well established "block club" network and various urban farming initiatives are designed to work in partnership with block clubs.


For sure it's a step towards it-- it's certainly something that should be appreciated. However, America's work simply isn't anywhere close to being complete. There are still millions of malnourished Americans who simply cannot access the nutrition they need, which has ramifications in literally every other sphere of their living existence. Relying on urban-farming and non-subsidized farmers visiting farmers-markets in big city areas to address the epidemic of America's malnutrition is simply wishful-thinking, and will likely tow the American healthcare system further towards bankruptcy.

Every journey begins with the first step. These should be considered first steps.
And yes, the journey is nowhere near its completion - still a long way to go.

Other initiatives that are starting to become more accepted include educating children on nutrition and food production. Many of the elementary schools in my community and others nearby (including inner city, low-income areas) have gardens where tomatoes, corn, beans, squash, carrots, lettuce, cabbage and other nutritious foods are grown. There are several inner-city schools that are raising chickens and distributing the eggs weekly.

Also, as far as education goes, there are several initiatives to remove or diminish the use of foods that use corn sweeteners that were started by children who studied the issue in their school and who petitioned their school's cafeterias to eliminate these products.

From a historic perspective, it's comitragically amusing when radicals feast on their sympathizers. Pretty much a standard trait for the revolutionary types.

Not that I'm calling you a radical or anything Moe. Just that you seem to sympathize with the leftist causes and are now being called out in this fashion.

Not sure what's so radical about the idea of a "journey" beginning with the first step. That seems pretty basic.

And while they are in response to his post, my comments are not really meant for Dalamon, since I'm pretty sure he's aware of all this stuff already. But I know from years of reading this message board that there may be others who have misconceptions about both low-income people and people in big cities (at any income), and my idealistic hope is to provide some new information to them.

Also not sure what your reference to being "called out in this fashion" is supposed to mean.

Sincere question. I have seen binary used this way, similarly, a few times in the past but admit l don't get it.
Would you care to explain its meaning based on your specific sentence?

not sure if this is how franklin means it, but I interpret it as being at opposite ends of the spectrum - not considering that there's plenty of ground in the between the two ends, with each side being equally entrenched in its own specific point of view.

EDIT: I was probably giving franklin too much credit. In rereading through the earlier posts, I think he threw that word in there "just because..."
:-)
 
That is a point that BP proposed, not I.


The plan is to try and mitigate global warming as much as possible, and as technology proceeds and our actions aggregate, maybe you can get some reversal. That makes sense-- because based on your wording, it seemed almost dismissive "ya climates a problem and we're already trying to stop it". My simply point is that there is a LOT more we can do, and stopping it at the rate we're currently stopping it at is insufficient (IMO).

This is a bit too nit-picky to debate over. We both agree that climate change is something that we should be concerned with. In the rest of this post, I'm going to try to convey to you why I think you are received with some hostility by some intelligent people around here. So it might get a teeny bit philosophical.


With this said, capitalism is a broad umbrella of multiple types. While "inhibiting growth to help people" may seem oxymoronic, nearly every contemporary capitalistic economic system has measures that inhibit growth, or regulations that reduce the maximization of growth of corporations. These regulations are widely instituted in order to help people, and they have decades of proof to prove that they work. That's why laissez-faire economics is a concept that's essentially absent in the modern world. While it may seem oxymoronic, it is simply something that already exists.

This is a bit of a strawman. I don't remember anyone arguing for a capitalist anarchy. I actually find libertarians who make a religion out of individual freedom to be supremely obnoxious. No self-respecting economist that I've heard of argues for a fully unregulated economy. Regulation is very much a part of modern capitalism. The problem is that you're not seeing the forest for the trees. You start from the faulty leftist premise that the system has done us wrong, and that we should band together to fix it. That's not right. Modern capitalism, along with other, mainly Western, ideals that focus on freedom of thought and action, have done all who embraced them a great deal of good. Any debate should start with that recognition; we've done very well to improve the lives of much of humanity, how can we continue to make it better? The perspective that we've really ****ed the world and the lives of its inhabitants up is inherently counterproductive. It accepts that the system - any system - inherently ****s us over. There is no pleasing that worldview. Perfection is impossible by its own subjective nature. Just look at Occupy's refusal to take on specific issues because "we are all individuals with individual demands". Or the vocal leftist opposition to Bernie Sanders, because no matter his beliefs, he will never address every problem, real or imaginary, held by people who think the system itself is the problem.

https://www.politico.com/magazine/s...rs-progressives-2016-121298.html#.VdC_aflVhBc

Ultimately, the question becomes this: who is economic growth really benefitting? Are the benefits disproportionate? Is there anyway we can preserve the benefits of a 'freer' economy, preserve economic growth enough, while maybe finding a way to distribute the benefits more evenly across socioeconomic strata? Again, measures that do this are already instated. These questions are not radical. However, like I said earlier: everything exists on a spectrum. Different nations have different responses to these questions, and some nations have taken more dramatic measures than the States have. Fortunately for them, some have largely been a success-- which begs the question of why doesn't the US follow suit?



Economic growth is benefiting nearly everyone. That's the point. Just a few centuries ago, the idea that even a 10% of the population can live comfortably was considered laughably unrealistic. Growth changed that for everyone except those who refused to embrace it.

https://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/StandardsofLivingandModernEconomicGrowth.html

You keep focusing on how some gain more than others. But so what? The US is very successful. Equal distribution of wealth across the strata means disposing of the system that made it successful. Sure the US can learn from other countries on how to do certain things better. But other countries can also learn from the US. The concern over the well-being of the poor must be balanced by recognition of the US economic strength, which improved their lives considerably. I don't think you're a radical at all. You, much like most people, would like to see people live better. I think what rubs franklin and others the wrong way is a little more fundamental. You don't want things to continue to get better (as they generally have been). You want them to stop getting worse. It's like people who argue that life was more precious before modern medicine because it was more fragile. They might want the same thing as most, but their starting point makes the utility of debating them suspect.
 
This is a bit too nit-picky to debate over. We both agree that climate change is something that we should be concerned with. In the rest of this post, I'm going to try to convey to you why I think you are received with some hostility by some intelligent people around here. So it might get a teeny bit philosophical.

Sure! And fair.




This is a bit of a strawman. I don't remember anyone arguing for a capitalist anarchy. I actually find libertarians who make a religion out of individual freedom to be supremely obnoxious.

When you make a statement like "inhibiting growth to help people is oxymoronic", this is the implication that it leaves. My point is that growth has already been inhibited to help people. This is what regulation does. And it's been largely successful, as we both agree.

No self-respecting economist that I've heard of argues for a fully unregulated economy. Regulation is very much a part of modern capitalism. The problem is that you're not seeing the forest for the trees. You start from the faulty leftist premise that the system has done us wrong, and that we should band together to fix it.

I don't quite think this is true. I start from the premise of "this system is pretty dang good, now how can we tweak it to make it better".

That's not right. Modern capitalism, along with other, mainly Western, ideals that focus on freedom of thought and action, have done all who embraced them a great deal of good. Any debate should start with that recognition; we've done very well to improve the lives of much of humanity, how can we continue to make it better?

Which is quite literally how I feel. Haha-- literally exactly what I just typed out above.

The perspective that we've really ****ed the world and the lives of its inhabitants up is inherently counterproductive. It accepts that the system - any system - inherently ****s us over. There is no pleasing that worldview. Perfection is impossible by its own subjective nature. Just look at Occupy's refusal to take on specific issues because "we are all individuals with individual demands". Or the vocal leftist opposition to Bernie Sanders, because no matter his beliefs, he will never address every problem, real or imaginary, held by people who think the system itself is the problem.

https://www.politico.com/magazine/s...rs-progressives-2016-121298.html#.VdC_aflVhBc

I think you are conflating my posts with the typical leftists my age. I really don't share some of the sentiments that you're proposing, in my opinion. My only doomsday-reminiscent posts that I've ever made are referencing climate change-- and even that was certainly a lot more mild than many of my contemporaries of all ages. I don't have an expectation for perfection-- but I do expect that people never remain complacent, and try to better the worlds they live in with every second that they spend on this planet.

The capitalist system in place throughout the developed world is a spectacular foundation to work with-- better than anything else ever created. However, it is up to each nation to work with this foundation, and address the very real problems that it can bring forth without further tweaking.




Economic growth is benefiting nearly everyone. That's the point. Just a few centuries ago, the idea that even a 10% of the population can live comfortably was considered laughably unrealistic. Growth changed that for everyone except those who refused to embrace it.

Economic growth benefits everyone, albeit disproportionately. I'm not sure how you're getting any sort of anti-capitalist vibes from my posts. That is literally not what I'm arguing at all. A fully planned economy is doomed to corruption, just like a fully free economy is. Money and politico-religous power both have equal abilities to corrupt individuals, but in different ways. That is why it's quite important to meet somewhere in the middle-- where this middle ground stands is that 'balance-point' that nations from all over the world struggle to pursue. You go too far private, and you have too few people reaping the benefits of economic growth. Too far to the other side, and you reduce efficiency, incentive, and economic growth by robbing entrepreneurs of the desire to expand their enterprises. It's a constant tug of war, and it's foolish to think that the US has figured it out when you see the conditions that some of her citizens are living in. That is precisely my point.

https://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/StandardsofLivingandModernEconomicGrowth.html

You keep focusing on how some gain more than others. But so what? The US is very successful. Equal distribution of wealth across the strata means disposing of the system that made it successful.

I am not arguing for complete income equality.

Sure the US can learn from other countries on how to do certain things better. But other countries can also learn from the US.

This is obviously true. Many nations have learned, and continue to learn from the US. While some things work and other things don't in terms of transferring over (and this is true to both sides), this doesn't mean that we erect our blinders, and assume that there is nothing to be learned from other nations.


The concern over the well-being of the poor must be balanced by recognition of the US economic strength, which improved their lives considerably. I don't think you're a radical at all. You, much like most people, would like to see people live better. I think what rubs franklin and others the wrong way is a little more fundamental. You don't want things to continue to get better (as they generally have been). You want them to stop getting worse. It's like people who argue that life was more precious before modern medicine because it was more fragile. They might want the same thing as most, but their starting point makes the utility of debating them suspect.

I have lived in two nations that are more left-wing than the United States (Germany and Canada) and I find that both have a plethora of benefits that should be extended to my American friends. I'm not ranking nations-- Germany has a very real covert racism problem that impacted my family (why we moved back to Canada when I was in the fourth grade), and Canada is simply ******** when it comes to environmental responsibility a lot of times. Still, this isn't to say that we can't learn from each other.
 
well how about liberal distribute the wealth in states like new york detroit and california go full on retard and go full on socialist.
then people can chose where to go. either retarded distribute the wealth states. or work for your money states
 
Speaking of Sanders...... How creepy are those new KFC commercials? I cringe every time one comes on.
 
Job-loss from what? The shifting of subsidies? That would simply cause them to grow different crops. I think the farmers will be fine.



Subsidized corn, and the products made from it are a massive culprit behind the current state of multiple American chronic health epidemics. This is simply factual.



A shifting of subsidies will help this. There are many examples throughout literally everywhere where this has gone down hitch-free. Big-Agra lobbying is a real ****ing thing though, so legislations involving subsidy shifting will simply never occur as long as financial interests dictate American legislations.



No one is proposing this.



Lol. Bruh. I live in a more northern, more cold climate than you do, and it is beyond ****ing easy to grow an absolute array of different fruits and vegetables. Maybe not bananas and pineapples-- but we currently have cucumbers, apples, cherries, apricots, plums, cabbage, kale, squash, carrots, shallots, onions, spinach, potatoes (list continues) growing in our garden. We can pickle the excess, and eat it over the span of winter. Turn some of the fruits into preserves. This is what families have done for centuries. Many farms have the means to either store these crops over colder seasons or simply grow them in their greenhouses. Subsidizing these farmers will only bring the cost of this produce down.



We should. Otherwise, there will be poor people without healthy food. This is something I find ethically troublesome, and revolting.



No **** they're crime-ridden-- so what do we do? Just ****ing ignore it? Let those communities live off of taquitos from 7-11?

The job loss comment was from the elimination of choices discussion we had when you said we could get rid of BMW or Honda as examples. You can re-read my posts on them, too lazy to write it out on a phone again.

Again, corn is healthy, producers made from it are not always healthy. I could say that about any crop, but carry on. Fwiw, I'm ok with taking away subsidization and have been vocal about it. The money farmers get just props up farmers who aren't good enough to make it on their own. They go out, larger farms then buy their ground reducing thr amount of farmers and increasing the size of family owned corporate farms and people bitch. Let it happen.

I'm well aware lobbying exists in agriculture Dala, my family is involved in it. We had to lobby against the First Lady last year. If you think we're able to lobby people to get the government to pay for our equipment, you're nuts. Do you even know the costs involved? Let's say we want more people to grow potatoes. They'll need a combine and a wind rower. That's about $600k for a decent pair. They'll need storage. Building will run a minimum of $700k, and that's just for one, they'll probably need more. It's a more labor intensive crop, need more hired hands. Probably need another tractor, that's $200k. Lots of other equipment that will total around $500k. That's just one farm Dala. What kind of subsidy is going to pay that? I don't know how much you know of subsidies, but we don't get anywhere close to that much.

Perhaps you've never heard of climate zones, but they predicate what you can grow. I can assure you that I cannot grow cherries here for example. Anyways, I'm not going to argue that because it's pointless, what you can grow in your garden isn't the same as what your neighbor a mile away can grow. You have a complete lack of understanding of agriculture, which is fine, I don't know much about molecular biology, but it might help to listen to somebody who does know just a little. Continuing, you said fresh, local produce. While I'm well aware of how to preserve crops, preserved crops aren't fresh. I mean, we can't be eating canned vegetables! I know roughly 4-5 farmers here who have their own greenhouses. They use them for disease purposes. They cannot be used to grow other crops in the winter for that purpose. There are tons of other farmers who don't have greenhouses, and even if they did, no way to water them. Water is expensive. It's also not realistic to store vast amounts of produce during the winter, farmers don't have little one acre plots man, we have a lot of land. That requires vast amounts of storage, which is expensive, and most farmers are pretty cash poor. I suppose we can get the government to pay for it though! It's an ideal thought, but it's just not realistic.

As for the last points, I just don't think we should force people to put a business where they don't want to. Give them incentives. Tax breaks for putting a building up and selling groceries, absolutely. Legislating them, forcing them, I don't think so. You also didn't answer my question, would you do it? Would you put up your hard earned money to start a business in a crime infested zone? Be honest. Remember, it's your lifestyle, your family at stake. I think this issue is more complex than you're willing to admit.
 
Sincere question. I have seen binary used this way, similarly, a few times in the past but admit l don't get it.
Would you care to explain its meaning based on your specific sentence?

See Moe's take below. But yeah, it is something that I've always wondered about. Why do certain people think so similarly on either one side or the other on a multitude of issues? You would think people wouldn't have such similar interests in such a wide range of issues yet we do.

My sincere question -- did you really mean what you wrote or were you feigning anger. I can never tell with you but it cut pretty deep. That thread was started for fun and turned south.


I think I see your point, and it's an important one-- but I don't think what I've said really goes against it that much. In my opinion, a preoccupation with being "too-PC" is a social-conservative phenomenon. That's pretty fair to say IMO.

Agreed. However, you're non-nonchalant SMH comment about our public education system deserved being called out. The American education system is far from catastrophic as the media makes it out to be. Talking with professionals in the field without an agenda is pretty eye opening.


EDIT: I was probably giving franklin too much credit. In rereading through the earlier posts, I think he threw that word in there "just because..."
:-)

Good call. I like to rib Dalamon a bit, but he prefers stubs instead of ribs.
 
See Moe's take below. But yeah, it is something that I've always wondered about. Why do certain people think so similarly on either one side or the other on a multitude of issues? You would think people wouldn't have such similar interests in such a wide range of issues yet we do.

My sincere question -- did you really mean what you wrote or were you feigning anger. I can never tell with you but it cut pretty deep. That thread was started for fun and turned south.




Agreed. However, you're non-nonchalant SMH comment about our public education system deserved being called out. The American education system is far from catastrophic as the media makes it out to be. Talking with professionals in the field without an agenda is pretty eye opening.




Good call. I like to rib Dalamon a bit, but he prefers stubs instead of ribs.

Remind me. I am never angry, btw.
 
See Moe's take below. But yeah, it is something that I've always wondered about. Why do certain people think so similarly on either one side or the other on a multitude of issues? You would think people wouldn't have such similar interests in such a wide range of issues yet we do.

My sincere question -- did you really mean what you wrote or were you feigning anger. I can never tell with you but it cut pretty deep. That thread was started for fun and turned south.




Agreed. However, you're non-nonchalant SMH comment about our public education system deserved being called out. The American education system is far from catastrophic as the media makes it out to be. Talking with professionals in the field without an agenda is pretty eye opening.




Good call. I like to rib Dalamon a bit, but he prefers stubs instead of ribs.

ribs ain't halal, bub.
 
Back
Top