Science vs. Creationism

[babe]

Oh yeah, then where did these things come from.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PaXEzvosnSE
Bacon?

could be better than bacon.

I'll get to work on this idea right away.

hmmm. . . . . get me some squid and some gophers, head back into my lab for oh, mayber a few million years of genetic engineering, and voila!!!!!!

"The Creator" might have a little production lag time following up on Imagination, but anything we can imagine, we can eventually create.

 

[babe]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolmogorov_complexity

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algorithmic_information_theory

Randomly created strings tend to have maximal complexity for the string size.

So I read the links. Maybe you should, too.

Probably you missed the point. Even these sorts of computational theorists, working with numbers, run into some limits and start talking about some things being unknowable or incomputable. But the limits which living things face relate to some other mathematical "theory" determined by limits of physical resources and the requirements of life for organization, function, and propagation. A living thing needs energy supply in food resources or sunlight and say carbon dioxide. It needs to in some compact way form a structure that can function somehow in addressing life needs, and within a fiinite time, to reproduce itself.

Observational data I'm sure would sustain the point that most organisms are simpler in nature rather than infinitely complex. Even humans apparently settle for two arms and two legs for some reason. . . . while a centipede may have a hundred, your information theory would suggest that, given enough time, we'll get smarter and have more arms and legs just because it's one of an infinite number of possible outcomes. . . . and given an infinite number of outcomes, the probability on any one outcome goes as a limit towards zero. . . .

but we haven't had that much time, and if the universe were actually random, it is far more probable that the closest thing to "life" that would have happened in merely 4 billion years is about four strings of amino acids six units long, with only two amino acids being of one kind.

It may be true that unhinged imagination can imagine anything, but imagination by itself is not "creation". "Creation" is the production of something in the material or real world which is functional. The essence of "religion" or human belief is its usefulness in ascribing some compact explanation to the world we are in. We have religion because it is useful in shaping our actions to achieve simple results, such as orderly social interactions. . . .and concise explanations of "life".

 

[babe]

One Brow: Complexity is an expected result from an ungoverned system.
One Brow: [System]= A group of interacting, interrelated, or interdependent elements forming a complex whole.

So complexity is an expected result from a complex whole.
Darwiniac: Hey guys, a complex whole is complex!

An oxymoron wrapped in a redundancy is even better than a plain old oxymoron.

*******
One Brow: Systems don't need to be governed. for example, the water cycle is a system.

I'm going to follow your liberal "logic":
Patterns don't need to be repetitive. for example, the water cycle is a pattern.
Oceans don't need to be salty. for example, the Pacific is an ocean.
American Presidents don't need to live in the white house. for example, Obama is the president.

"There oughtta be a law against having this much fun."

 

[carolinajazz]

Complexity is an expected result from an ungoverned system.

There is a “fire” that warms our skin by day. That “fire” is burning some 93*million miles [150*million km] away! What power the sun must have for you to be able to feel its heat from such a distance! Yet, the earth orbits that awesome thermonuclear furnace at just the right distance. Too close, and earth’s water would vaporize; too far, and it would all freeze. Either extreme would render our planet lifeless. Essential to life on earth, sunlight is also clean and efficient, not to mention delightful.

Creative power is evident in every facet of the earth’s design. Consider the atmosphere, which serves as a protective shield. The sun emits healthful rays and deadly ones. When the lethal rays strike the earth’s upper atmosphere, they cause ordinary oxygen to turn into ozone. The resulting ozone layer, in turn, absorbs most of those rays. In effect, our planet is designed with its own protective umbrella!

That is just one aspect of our atmosphere, a complex mix of gases ideally suited to supporting the creatures living on or near the earth’s surface. Among wonders of the atmosphere is the water cycle. Every year the sun lifts up by evaporation over 100,000 cubic miles [400,000 cu km] of water from the earth’s oceans and seas. The water forms clouds, which are circulated far and wide by atmospheric winds. This water, now filtered and purified, falls as rain, snow, and ice, replenishing water supplies.


....yeah, Brow, we are just bombarded by "ungoverned" systems!!!

 

[One Brow]

...oh, I believe "mutations" happen and some aspects of the animal kingdom do survive better than others when presented with various environments. However, 99% of mutations are harmful to the organism AND mutations cannot produce entirely new kinds of plants or animals!

the vast majority of mutations are neutral, some are harmful, and a few are beneficial. I agree mutations do not produce new kinds of things; as I have mentioned, evolutionary theory does not teach that populations from one kind of thing change into a different kind of thing.

And decades ago, evolutionary biologist George Christopher Williams began questioning whether natural selection had such power. In 1999, evolutionary theorist Jeffrey H.*Schwartz wrote that natural selection may be helping species adapt to the changing demands of existence, but it is not creating anything new.

In the decades since, we've seen some of the power natural selection has, and I have said many times evolutionary theory does not teach that populations give rise to something completely new.

 

[One Brow]

Hey guys, a complex whole is complex!

Degrees of complexity can vary. Ungoverned systems become more complex.

Patterns don't need to be repetitive. for example, the water cycle is a pattern.

The water cycle is repetitive, hence the term "cycle".

Oceans don't need to be salty. for example, the Pacific is an ocean.

They are salty because land waters drain salt into them, not because they are oceans.

American Presidents don't need to live in the white house. for example, Obama is the president.

We have had Presidents who did not live in the White House.

 

[One Brow]

But the limits which living things face relate to some other mathematical "theory" determined by limits of physical resources and the requirements of life for organization, function, and propagation. A living thing needs energy supply in food resources or sunlight and say carbon dioxide. It needs to in some compact way form a structure that can function somehow in addressing life needs, and within a fiinite time, to reproduce itself.

I agree that life can never have the sort of random complexity that a fully ungoverned system would have, because selection does limit the possibilities.

However, the point I was arguing against is that life is too complex to be ungoverned.

Observational data I'm sure would sustain the point that most organisms are simpler in nature rather than infinitely complex.

So, you're saying life is so simple it must be designed. That is the opposite of carolinajazz's view.

I would disagree, because living things show too many signs of jury-rigging, kludges, and other pointless complexities to be designed. However, you can certainly choose to believe in a designer who likes jury-rigging, etc., and there will be nothing I can do to disprove it.

 

[One Brow]

Yet, the earth orbits that awesome thermonuclear furnace at just the right distance.

The puddle marvels that the pot-hole it is in is so perfectly shaped as to fit the puddle, and concludes the pot-hole is designed.

 

[MVP]

However, 99% of mutations are harmful to the organism AND mutations cannot produce entirely new kinds of plants or animals!

Alone maybe not but in combination with environmental changes they do. London underground mosquito says hello again. Please stop embarrassing yourself.

 

[MVP]

There is a “fire” that warms our skin by day. That “fire” is burning some 93*million miles [150*million km] away! What power the sun must have for you to be able to feel its heat from such a distance! Yet, the earth orbits that awesome thermonuclear furnace at just the right distance. Too close, and earth’s water would vaporize; too far, and it would all freeze. Either extreme would render our planet lifeless. Essential to life on earth, sunlight is also clean and efficient, not to mention delightful.

Creative power is evident in every facet of the earth’s design. Consider the atmosphere, which serves as a protective shield. The sun emits healthful rays and deadly ones. When the lethal rays strike the earth’s upper atmosphere, they cause ordinary oxygen to turn into ozone. The resulting ozone layer, in turn, absorbs most of those rays. In effect, our planet is designed with its own protective umbrella!

That is just one aspect of our atmosphere, a complex mix of gases ideally suited to supporting the creatures living on or near the earth’s surface. Among wonders of the atmosphere is the water cycle. Every year the sun lifts up by evaporation over 100,000 cubic miles [400,000 cu km] of water from the earth’s oceans and seas. The water forms clouds, which are circulated far and wide by atmospheric winds. This water, now filtered and purified, falls as rain, snow, and ice, replenishing water supplies.

Knowing how stars behave we know for sure that that perfect/safe distance will fry us in few billions of years and those conditions necessary for life may happen at more distant planets like Mars or moons of Jupiter.
Nothing proves creation or design there, there are billions of planets in universe which are in that Goldilocks zone.

"On November 4, 2013, astronomers reported, based on Kepler space mission data, that there could be as many as 40 billion Earth-sized planets orbiting in the habitable zones of sun-like stars and red dwarf stars within the Milky Way Galaxy alone!!!"

 

[carolinajazz]

.....as I have mentioned, evolutionary theory does not teach that populations from one kind of thing change into a different kind of thing.....and I have said many times evolutionary theory does not teach that populations give rise to something completely new.

....so what business do you have believing the hogwash, then?

 

[carolinajazz]

Alone maybe not but in combination with environmental changes they do. London underground mosquito says hello again. Please stop embarrassing yourself.

....you keeping bringing up that "London underground" mosquito too often.....and it's going to bite you and give you malaria!