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Science vs. Creationism

...the Bible does NOT say the earth was create first then stars! Where did you get that idea from??? .

Are you not paying attention to what are you reading? Seriously?

10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

11 And God said, Let the earth put forth grass, herbs yielding seed, and fruit-trees bearing fruit after their kind, wherein is the seed thereof, upon the earth: and it was so.

12 And the earth brought forth grass, herbs yielding seed after their kind, and trees bearing fruit, wherein is the seed thereof, after their kind: and God saw that it was good.

13 And there was evening and there was morning, a third day.

14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days and years:

15 and let them be for lights in the firmament of heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

16 And God made the two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
 
well, at least Zulu needs to provide some rational hypothesis about why transitional evolutionary mutants don't fossilize as well as the putatively superior lifeforms that form immense masses of fossils. . . . .

Biological essentialism rears its ugly head.

Every life form is as transitional as any other life form. Every generation is the offspring of the successful members of the previous generation.
 
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well, at least Zulu needs to provide some rational hypothesis about why transitional evolutionary mutants don't fossilize as well as the putatively superior lifeforms that form immense masses of fossils. . . . .

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Says who? There are plenty fossilized transitional species and as well plenty living transitional species on Earth today. Not sure why we are even discussing this, it is so obvious.
 
I love digging trilobites out in Delta. Sounds corny, but to be able to hold something in your hand that is 500,000,000 years old is really something.

Been trying to convince my wife to do this for awhile now.... Maybe I'll just take my kids this spring break why she is working!!!
 
Hey guys. . . don't choke on that humble pie.

well, at least Zulu needs to provide some rational hypothesis about why transitional evolutionary mutants don't fossilize as well as the putatively superior lifeforms that form immense masses of fossils. . . . .
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What makes you think that all those fossils aren't the mutants....
 
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As an atheist-leaning agnostic, I accept there's a fair possibility that some supreme being ultimately created matter (the Big Bang). It's not really all that much more implausible than matter just coming into existence one black day for no reason.

That said, you can't just cite fantastic conditions for the support of life on Earth as any kind of proof of Intelligent Design / Divine Creator. Yes, these conditions are extraordinarily improbable. But the universe is extraordinarily frickin' large.
Yeah, you probably won't get that coin to land on the ground and stand on-edge. But try it 100 billion times. Bet you could get one. Or ten, even.

...the size of the Universe, as colossal and enormous as it is, would certainly move a thinking person to acknowledge a Creator with tremendous power. But you couple that with the balance and delicate precision that these hugh planets and stars move around.....without colliding into each other, and you have to concede a wise designer as well, no?
 
This is like saying the universe is entirely chaotic and nothing can be known by any attempt to infer correlations between measurements and hypotheses.

With different methods producing a vast number of coherent results in geologic samples, I'm sure the methods are a lot better than you think, and the only intelligent response an honest scientists disputing the accuracy/precision of a method can make is to develop a database of incoherent or disparate results that define the problems with the methods, if you think there are problems.

My own study has confirmed the larger trend that we have several accurate methods for estimating geologic time. . . .


...hey babe....I'm on your side! We must have a misunderstanding here! I thought he was referring to HIS own ability to do better than the Creator!
 
...the size of the Universe, as colossal and enormous as it is, would certainly move a thinking person to acknowledge a Creator with tremendous power. But you couple that with the balance and delicate precision that these hugh planets and stars move around.....without colliding into each other, and you have to concede a wise designer as well, no?

No, the precision is an effect of gravity, and collision still happen regularly.
 
...hey babe....I'm on your side! We must have a misunderstanding here! I thought he was referring to HIS own ability to do better than the Creator!

I understand the fundamentalist Bible-believer position that since God is the creator of everything, including physical laws governing the properties and behavior of elements and every form of energy, all it takes is an infinite miracle, a blink of God's eye, to bring us and everything else into existence. . . . and while some scripture seems to validate that point. . . . I don't care to put all my beans in that bag.

It is an assumption. . . . . made by pious folks thousands of years ago just as well as an assumption pious folks today are sometimes willing to make. I take the position that I don't know how God did it, principally because there is no scripture competent to address the way He did it. . . . no scripture that lays out the laws and principles utilized in "creation".

I can understand a scientific discussion, and I might fault "evolutionists" for not strictly adhering to professional attitudes and professional methods, and for being too willing to "fill in the gaps" with speculation. . . . seeing that in doing so they are no better than pious folks who do the same thing, and on perhaps an even larger scale. . ..

Being a "partisan" and committed to any one side is fundamentally contrary to the process of scientific inquiry that should leave bias behind in the discussion.

When I say I believe in God because of my anecdotal experience set, I fully understand that that is not a "scientific" statement. A statement of faith, but I am willing to connect even that with whatever reasonable support I can give it.

As for being on your side, I am on your side in the sense that I respect someone of your beliefs who can articulate them better than I can, and maybe support them with reason I have not considered. But I must settle myself on the position that I don't know everything, I might be wrong on a point or two, but I expect that we cannot argue God out of existence, or out of His character, and we are liable one day to realize where we have been wrong about Him.

God is His own person, and is sovereign. . . . and as the song say. . .. "is his own interpreter".

I figure God has given us the gift of life, and how we choose to appreciate that, and return love or respect. . .. well. . . . that's our gift to give. Pretty clear to me that the ball is in our hands on this play. It's our decision to make. . . . whether we will believe in God or not, or give Him any reverence or appreciation. . . . and we can't steal that choice from anyone with our own logic. On the other hand, I consider it just as misguided for nonbelievers to hammer away at believers in any attempt to impose their beliefs. I don't want the government doing that, and I think even people need not be that partisan.

If someone is voluntarily in the discussion, I'm willing to spout off and say I can about. . . . that's about it.

might not rise to the level of injunction as "Go into all the world and preach the Gospel" exactly, but when I was a missionary I found my efforts more effective when I focus on people who were "in the market" for answers, not on crusades for their own beliefs. . . .
 
...the size of the Universe, as colossal and enormous as it is, would certainly move a thinking person to acknowledge a Creator with tremendous power. But you couple that with the balance and delicate precision that these hugh planets and stars move around.....without colliding into each other, and you have to concede a wise designer as well, no?
Um... no?

Well I guess I'm not a "thinking person" now.

I have no idea where you're deriving the premise "really really big = must be Creator" from.

As I said in my post, I acknowledge that it's quite possible there's a Creator. I'm not going to count it out. But we have no real way of knowing what things were like "in the beginning."
1. Was there nothing, and then there was Stuff?
1a. If so, did Stuff appear out of thin air for no reason?
1b. Or do we add an extra step and say God appeared out of thin air for no reason, and then created Stuff?
2. Or did God always exist eternally, and one day created Stuff?
3. Or did Stuff just always exist?

"Really really big universe" in no way makes 1b & 2 any more likely than 1a & 3. It just doesn't.
 
Isn't disorder more probable, with no other outside influence, than order?
 

I'm not sure why you posted this picture, but this brings up a huge grand canyon like hole in your story.

Okay we have a variety of skull sizes and shapes. Woopdeedoo!

The more important question is how the hell did a non-skulled creature accidentally and gradually mutate it's way to a skull with all the right attributes...a jaw with teeth, holes for ears, 2 eye sockets, a nose...not to mention how this just happened to have a simultaneous evolution of the brain, the backbone, the nervous system, and all the attributes a creature needs to have a use for a skull in the first place.

How do you go from a non-vertebrate to a vertebrate by a gradual accidental process? I want the whole bedtime story. I don't want you to start in the middle with a fish who conveniently is a vertebrate to begin with.
 
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