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Serious question: Why are people rooting for the Jazz to win this year?

fishonjazz said:
You still never answered my question green.

How do the jazz go about tanking? (i seriously want to know how they really could tank, im behind the idea of tanking but dont understand how the jazz would execute it)
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This drives me so fetching crazy. I have NEVER said the Jazz should "tank."

NEVER. NOT ONCE.

I ALWAYS have said that the Jazz should play the Core 4, tell Al, Millsap and other vets to pound sand, and worst case scenario, we suck. But guess what happens if we suck? We get better.

Look at what would have happened if the Jazz would have followed my advice two seasons ago.

We start

Harris
Burks
Hayward
Favors
Kanter

Burks and Kanter were rookies. That team would have started the year and been AWFUL. We would have gotten a top 5 pick. Could you imagine Kanter getting 30 mins a night his rookie season?

Then lets say the team surprises and gets the fifth pick. We could have drafted Lilliard and Barnes. We would KNOW what Favors is, and how much to pay him this summer. Kanter would have gotten a full season under his belt, and gone into the off season with a specific plan, because you would know exactly what he needs to improve.

And then we start this season with an experienced Favors, Kanter, Burks, and Hayward. The team is now Hayward's. Instead of Al, Mo, Paul, etc's lazy attitude towards effort and defense, we now have Hayward's tough mindedness spreading.

We come into this year with this lineup:

Harris/Lilliard
Hayward/Burks
Barnes/DMC
Favors/whoever
Kanter/whoever

How amazing would that have been? That team is much better overall, just straight up talent, than OKC. And guess what? This WHOLE scenario implies that the Jazz Raja Bell'ed Al and Paul. This doesn't even include any assets the Jazz might have picked up in a trade for those two.

Again, the Jazz screwed up BIG TIME. If they were worried about not having fans show up in a bad season, what better season to start over than a short season? They had a chance to be terrible, have it be a short season, get a LOCAL player that is actually good, and really be great. But no, they decided that Corbin and Al were their future. And they screwed up big time.

Now, because they screwed up so badly in that short season, they have made it almost impossible to compete for a title with this core. One of the four HAS to develop into an elite player. I don't know if any of them can be. The closest we have in potential is Kanter, and he can't get off the bench.

Finally, just to re-emphasize, never once have I said the Jazz should tank. I've only said Al, Paul and Corbin suck, and they aren't taking us anywhere. Play the players that have potential to actually take us somewhere. If we suck, it's ok. If we don't, even better, we drafted special players in Burks, Favors, Kanter, and Hayward.
 
green said:
This drives me so fetching crazy. I have NEVER said the Jazz should "tank."

NEVER. NOT ONCE.

I ALWAYS have said that the Jazz should play the Core 4, tell Al, Millsap and other vets to pound sand, and worst case scenario, we suck. But guess what happens if we suck? We get better.

Look at what would have happened if the Jazz would have followed my advice two seasons ago.

We start

Harris
Burks
Hayward
Favors
Kanter

Burks and Kanter were rookies. That team would have started the year and been AWFUL. We would have gotten a top 5 pick. Could you imagine Kanter getting 30 mins a night his rookie season?

Then lets say the team surprises and gets the fifth pick. We could have drafted Lilliard and Barnes. We would KNOW what Favors is, and how much to pay him this summer. Kanter would have gotten a full season under his belt, and gone into the off season with a specific plan, because you would know exactly what he needs to improve.

And then we start this season with an experienced Favors, Kanter, Burks, and Hayward. The team is now Hayward's. Instead of Al, Mo, Paul, etc's lazy attitude towards effort and defense, we now have Hayward's tough mindedness spreading.

We come into this year with this lineup:

Harris/Lilliard
Hayward/Burks
Barnes/DMC
Favors/whoever
Kanter/whoever

How amazing would that have been? That team is much better overall, just straight up talent, than OKC. And guess what? This WHOLE scenario implies that the Jazz Raja Bell'ed Al and Paul. This doesn't even include any assets the Jazz might have picked up in a trade for those two.

Again, the Jazz screwed up BIG TIME. If they were worried about not having fans show up in a bad season, what better season to start over than a short season? They had a chance to be terrible, have it be a short season, get a LOCAL player that is actually good, and really be great. But no, they decided that Corbin and Al were their future. And they screwed up big time.

Now, because they screwed up so badly in that short season, they have made it almost impossible to compete for a title with this core. One of the four HAS to develop into an elite player. I don't know if any of them can be. The closest we have in potential is Kanter, and he can't get off the bench.

Finally, just to re-emphasize, never once have I said the Jazz should tank. I've only said Al, Paul and Corbin suck, and they aren't taking us anywhere. Play the players that have potential to actually take us somewhere. If we suck, it's ok. If we don't, even better, we drafted special players in Burks, Favors, Kanter, and Hayward.
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Bro, im on your side..... im all about the youth and have always been.

Here is the problem...... If you play burks and hayward big time minutes from the get go, then that means that bell, cj, and josh howard dont play very much.... That gives the jazz more wins.
If you play kanter and favors big time minutes, then that means that Alfense no longer dominates everything and millsaps too short to play defense dissappears. Now in this case you lose lots of scoring without al and sap so i think this would cause a few more losses.

So basically if the jazz do your plan, then i see the playing more minutes for burks and hayward getting us more wins, while playing kanter and favors more than jeffy and millsap equals a few more losses.

So where do we end up? Right back where we started. Hovering around the 8th seed of the playoffs and not getting these top 5 picks you speak of.

The only way for the jazz to end up with players like lillard and barnes last year would be to sign the crappiest free agents possible and then combine those crappy free agents with earl watson, jamaal tinsley, raja bell, cj miles and josh howard and give them all the minutes while keeping the core 4 on the bench along with sap and jeffy.
 
green said:
If only the Jazz had listened to me...
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I see and agree with you about importance of getting a better pick, but the Jazz are simply too good to finish at the bottom right now. They are in the worst possible spot between 8th play-off spot/sure 1st round loss or just miss the play offs and get the worst lottery selection. If we sit our best averaging players - their back-ups are even better. In fact, because we have such incompetent coach, we are likely going to get a lottery pick. Hayward has played about as good as Paul George when given opportunity, yet Corbin reduced his minutes from last year and chose pathetic scrubs over him to start games. Kanter is most talented player we have, and Corbin does not utilize him at all. Do you remember how many times we had a situation where 3 of our starters had 0 or close to it points combined in the entire game? Yet coach still would not start young guys who are already far superior to the veterans.

Now, this is actually bad for player's development, but helps in getting better pick, like you are advocating. This team is going to get a better pick than it deserves this year, but even with coach like Corbin we are bound to win some games and can't qualify for top picks. So, I am not exactly sure what you mean, when you said the Jazz should have listened to you. If anything, they did by getting a coach that lost quite a few games for us and will likely get us a lottery selection vs 1st round loss in play-offs and a worse pick
 
"The quickie summation for this format, from those plugged into the coaching grapevine, is that Corbin's position is likely endangered only if the Jazz miss out on the playoffs. And even then -- even amid ongoing doubts about his ability to make on-the-fly game adjustments and what has been described as an unremarkable sideline presence -- Corbin could hang on.

Don't forget that (A) he's working for a franchise not exactly known for shuffling coaches in and out and (B) Corbin had one of this season's tougher coaching assignments given all the free agents on Utah's roster and the accompanying mystery surrounding what happens with Al Jefferson and Paul Millsap with Derrick Favors and Enes Kanter in line for bigger roles. So don't be surprised if he's back for the final year of his contract." Mark Stein
 
green said:
This drives me so fetching crazy. I have NEVER said the Jazz should "tank."

NEVER. NOT ONCE.

I ALWAYS have said that the Jazz should play the Core 4, tell Al, Millsap and other vets to pound sand, and worst case scenario, we suck. But guess what happens if we suck? We get better.

Look at what would have happened if the Jazz would have followed my advice two seasons ago.

We start

Harris
Burks
Hayward
Favors
Kanter

Burks and Kanter were rookies. That team would have started the year and been AWFUL. We would have gotten a top 5 pick. Could you imagine Kanter getting 30 mins a night his rookie season?

Then lets say the team surprises and gets the fifth pick. We could have drafted Lilliard and Barnes. We would KNOW what Favors is, and how much to pay him this summer. Kanter would have gotten a full season under his belt, and gone into the off season with a specific plan, because you would know exactly what he needs to improve.

And then we start this season with an experienced Favors, Kanter, Burks, and Hayward. The team is now Hayward's. Instead of Al, Mo, Paul, etc's lazy attitude towards effort and defense, we now have Hayward's tough mindedness spreading.

We come into this year with this lineup:

Harris/Lilliard
Hayward/Burks
Barnes/DMC
Favors/whoever
Kanter/whoever

How amazing would that have been? That team is much better overall, just straight up talent, than OKC. And guess what? This WHOLE scenario implies that the Jazz Raja Bell'ed Al and Paul. This doesn't even include any assets the Jazz might have picked up in a trade for those two.

Again, the Jazz screwed up BIG TIME. If they were worried about not having fans show up in a bad season, what better season to start over than a short season? They had a chance to be terrible, have it be a short season, get a LOCAL player that is actually good, and really be great. But no, they decided that Corbin and Al were their future. And they screwed up big time.

Now, because they screwed up so badly in that short season, they have made it almost impossible to compete for a title with this core. One of the four HAS to develop into an elite player. I don't know if any of them can be. The closest we have in potential is Kanter, and he can't get off the bench.

Finally, just to re-emphasize, never once have I said the Jazz should tank. I've only said Al, Paul and Corbin suck, and they aren't taking us anywhere. Play the players that have potential to actually take us somewhere. If we suck, it's ok. If we don't, even better, we drafted special players in Burks, Favors, Kanter, and Hayward.
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Who told you the jazz were committed to al for the future? I remain convinced that al has these last few games as a jazz man, and we are going to start d fave next year.
 
green said:
Could you imagine Kanter getting 30 mins a night his rookie season?
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No I can't. The dude was huffing and puffing after 5 minutes on the floor in his rookie year.

What happens if Kanter is satisfied with his 30 minutes a night and doesn't become determined to improve over the summer, as he did?

And then we start this season with an experienced Favors, Kanter, Burks, and Hayward. we now have Hayward's tough mindedness spreading.
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Hayward hasn't played consistently until the end of this season. There no reason to think anything would have changed from him.
 
LunaticWolf said:
No I can't. The dude was huffing and puffing after 5 minutes on the floor in his rookie year.

What happens if Kanter is satisfied with his 30 minutes a night and doesn't become determined to improve over the summer, as he did?

Hayward hasn't played consistently until the end of this season. There no reason to think anything would have changed from him.
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Duh. Hence why we would get two top draft picks last year.

My heck, you guys don't read my post at all.

Same with B-liner. I NEVER said the Jazz were committed to Al.

Also, Borat, my post was during the strike shortened season. The Jazz would have been worse with Kanter, Hayward, Burks and Favors playing the majority of the minutes that year. Kanter was NOT ready at ALL for big minutes. Burks was a rookie and a TO machine. Hayward was WILDLY inconsistent. And Favors fouled at about 10,000 fouls per minute.

We would have been TERRIBLE that year...and gotten a TON of experience and TWO top draft picks.
 
green said:
Also, Borat, my post was during the strike shortened season. The Jazz would have been worse with Kanter, Hayward, Burks and Favors playing the majority of the minutes that year. Kanter was NOT ready at ALL for big minutes. Burks was a rookie and a TO machine. Hayward was WILDLY inconsistent. And Favors fouled at about 10,000 fouls per minute.

We would have been TERRIBLE that year...and gotten a TON of experience and TWO top draft picks.
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I did not realize this thread was going way back. In other words, what you were suggesting is: when we got rid of Deron, and got Kanter and Burks in the draft, you are saying we should have started rebuilding process with dumping AJ and Millsap for nothing but draft picks (and possible short term contracts), so we would get some value, and playing young guys. Basically get into rebuilding mode, get more good draft picks, while young talent is not yet good enough to win many games, and develop young talent in the process. Well, this is exactly what OKC did actually, and they made it to the Finals. Of course OKC then screwed up by committing salary to scrubs like Perkins and then giving up one of the best players in the League they drafted in Harden, but the point remains. And this is a fair point. It involved some risk, because you could be bad for a few years and then not become a contender, but it also had a chance to get more top talent to go with Kanter and Hayward, and then be much better on the long run.

Jazz had a chance to go that route, and they chose to be competitive now with AJ and Millsap. The problem is, Jazz does not have the mentality of championship or bust. They would not take any chances. They prefer to be competitive every year, fully knowing that championship is out of reach and just don't have balls to make bold moves you are talking about. You have to accept that if you are a fan of the team, as frustrating as it may be. It's not like Jazz didn't listen to you, and you turned out to be right, it is more like taking risk is never an option. KOC's last big move was getting Marvin Williams at high salary for 2 years to take up our CAP space and play the same position (and start) as Hayward - an up and coming star, who was already better than Marvin at the time of the trade. You get the idea.
 
To the original question in the thread. I root for the Jazz to win every game every year because thats the way I am wired. I am a fan. Not a conditional fan on them doing it the way I think it should be done. But a fan of the team that I root for. I well alway cheer for them to win no matter what the situation.
 
Ben10 said:
To the original question in the thread. I root for the Jazz to win every game every year because thats the way I am wired. I am a fan. Not a conditional fan on them doing it the way I think it should be done. But a fan of the team that I root for. I well alway cheer for them to win no matter what the situation.
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Your reasoning is is what will keep you from ever being #1. The Jazz do not have the talent to win it all. It will be impossible for them to get that talent unless they lose.

Your/the Jazz's thinking will do nothing but keep them in the 7-11 range.

You HAVE to lose to win in the NBA.

https://jazzfanz.com/showthread.php...e-quot-people-To-win-a-title-you-have-to-suck
 
green said:
Your reasoning is is what will keep you from ever being #1. The Jazz do not have the talent to win it all. It will be impossible for them to get that talent unless they lose.

Your/the Jazz's thinking will do nothing but keep them in the 7-11 range.

You HAVE to lose to win in the NBA.

https://jazzfanz.com/showthread.php...e-quot-people-To-win-a-title-you-have-to-suck
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You completely missed the point of my post.

Lets see if I can make it more clear. I might think that the Jazz need to do things differently and that they have made mistakes and that I would rather they took more chances and get a different coach and play the young guys more. All of those are things that I think should happen or should have happened.

But once the game starts my heart wont let me not root for my team to win. I cheer and get nervous every game like its game 7 of the finals. Like I said, thats the way I am wired. It isn't reasoning or thinking it's fandom.

I was just trying to answer your question as to why I am still cheering in an honest fashion.
 
Ben10 said:
You completely missed the point of my post.

Lets see if I can make it more clear. I might think that the Jazz need to do things differently and that they have made mistakes and that I would rather they took more chances and get a different coach and play the young guys more. All of those are things that I think should happen or should have happened.

But once the game starts my heart wont let me not root for my team to win. I cheer and get nervous every game like its game 7 of the finals. Like I said, thats the way I am wired. It isn't reasoning or thinking it's fandom.

I was just trying to answer your question as to why I am still cheering in an honest fashion.
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Fair enough.
 
green said:
Take a step back and think about it. We have a solid core: Favors, Kanter, Burks, and Hayward. There are a lot of good, solid players there, and maybe one or two future all stars if we get lucky. That's the problem. Favors may be a fantastic player, but he isn't a sure thing (although he looks very promising). Same can be said for the other three. Why not root for Utah to get a top 3 pick and GS's pick this year? It's a shortened season, they look awful, but young, and I don't know if this team has THAT guy; a Kobe, Durant, Rose, etc, who can put the team on his back and take them to a title. Why not suffer through 66 games, root for losses, BUT hope that one of the young four looks fantastic every night (continued improvement) and then have an excellent pick or two to get our wing All-Pro?

Then our whole starting five may very well be all top 10 draft picks. This team would be chocked full of talent, with pieces to trade (Jefferson), and cap room (Okur).

This is our most realistic way to win a title; one more year of bad basketball.
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Awwww. ****. Imagine Lillard and Barnes on this team right now:

Lillard
Hayward
Barnes
Favors
Gobert

****, I hate it when I'm right.
 
How could the Jazz have gotten both Lillard and Barnes when they were drafted before the protection of Golden State's pick had been been extinguished?

And besides, since that lineup isn't championship caliber, you'd be calling to tear it down again.
 
Darkwing Duck said:
How could the Jazz have gotten both Lillard and Barnes when they were drafted before the protection of Golden State's pick had been been extinguished?

And besides, since that lineup isn't championship caliber, you'd be calling to tear it down again.
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please don't feed the idiot
 
Darkwing Duck said:
How could the Jazz have gotten both Lillard and Barnes when they were drafted before the protection of Golden State's pick had been been extinguished?

And besides, since that lineup isn't championship caliber, you'd be calling to tear it down again.
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Wrong. I've said you can't win a title without a star. Lillard is a star. I'd be calling for Utah to build around Lillard.

Also, wasn't the year that GS's pick was top 7 protected? Didn't GS draft #7? So, the assumption would be that if Utah tanked that year, they would have ended up in the top 7, pushing GS down to 8 or lower, thereby surrendering the pick to Utah.
 
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