Should We Move Gobert?

[Ferguson_Mellochill]

By small, I mean 5-out. The context of my post, and this whole discussion, should have made that obvious.


The point is that Gobert still has to defend the perimeter in 5-out schemes. If our perimeter players could better defend, that wouldn't be as big of an issue. But the fact remains that Gobert's biggest strength - his rim protection - is nullified, and therefore so is his value. When he's not at the rim to defend, he's not worth what we're paying him.

It's not his fault. I'm not criticizing him for it. It just is what it is.

Gobert is good at defending the perimeter in 5-out coverage. He did great. The problem is, the other Jazz players are so overmatched that Rudy also has to defend the paint and the corner at the same time. The Jazz rely on Rudy to guard 3 people instead of 1 or 2.

As I see it, the question is not whether there's a place in the league for true centers like Rudy. The question is whether there's still a place in the league for small, pure point guards like Mike Conley. Mike got overwhelmed against the Clippers' size and speed.

Replace Mike Conley with Shai Gilgeous-Alexander. Replace Royce O'Neale with Jaylen Brown. The Jazz are now a dynasty, and Rudy is part of it. Rudy isn't the problem.

 

[MT Steve]

Gobert is good at defending the perimeter in 5-out coverage. He did great. The problem is, the other Jazz players are so overmatched that Rudy also has to defend the paint and the corner at the same time. The Jazz rely on Rudy to guard 3 people instead of 1 or 2.

As I see it, the question is not whether there's a place in the league for true centers like Rudy. The question is whether there's still a place in the league for small, pure point guards like Mike Conley.

Replace Mike Conley with Shai Gilgeous-Alexander. Replace Royce O'Neale with Jaylen Brown. The Jazz are now a dynasty, and Rudy is part of it. Rudy isn't the problem.

You're not seeing my point.

I'm not arguing that Gobert is a bad perimeter defender.
I'm not arguing that Gobert is to blame.

What I am arguing is that Gobert's value is, in very large part, due to his historically elite rim protection. 5-out schemes nullify that - and therefore his value.

 

[LoPo]

Gobert is good at defending the perimeter in 5-out coverage. He did great. The problem is, the other Jazz players are so overmatched that Rudy also has to defend the paint and the corner at the same time. The Jazz rely on Rudy to guard 3 people instead of 1 or 2.

As I see it, the question is not whether there's a place in the league for true centers like Rudy. The question is whether there's still a place in the league for small, pure point guards like Mike Conley. Mike got overwhelmed against the Clippers' size and speed.

Replace Mike Conley with Shai Gilgeous-Alexander. Replace Royce O'Neale with Jaylen Brown. The Jazz are now a dynasty, and Rudy is part of it. Rudy isn't the problem.

We can't get those players

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[Ferguson_Mellochill]

We can't get those players

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Then get as close as you can to those archetypes.

But my point is that Gobert is a switchable defender. He guards multiple actions and guards all over the floor every damn game. It's Mike Conley who isn't a switchable defender. The Jazz needed to send help to Paul George, and that left perimeter shooters open all night--whether it was Mann, Beverly or Batum. The Jazz made a conscious decision to make this gamble, and they lost big.

 

[Ferguson_Mellochill]

You're not seeing my point.

I'm not arguing that Gobert is a bad perimeter defender.
I'm not arguing that Gobert is to blame.

What I am arguing is that Gobert's value is, in very large part, due to his historically elite rim protection. 5-out schemes nullify that - and therefore his value.

I wouldn't say that 5-out schemes nullify Gobert. Jaren Jackson Jr. didn't nullify Gobert in the Grizzlies series. The thing that nullifies Gobert is when you try to guard Paul George with Mike Conley and Gobert has to help and leave someone wide open.

James Harden beats his man off the dribble and Gobert has to go help. Now Capella is open at the rim. That's not on Gobert. That's on the guy who couldn't stay in front of James Harden. It's the same principle.

The Clippers had interchangeable defenders who could switch on the Jazz shooters. The Jazz aren't as balanced defensively and rely too much on Gobert. On both ends, the Clippers were a more balanced team than the Jazz.

 

[MT Steve]

I wouldn't say that 5-out schemes nullify Gobert.

They nullify his rim protection.

When Gobert has to leave the rim to defend at the perimeter, which he will always have to do when there are 5 competent shooters on the floor, he's not there to protect the rim.

I'm not going to keep going in circles over this.

 

[fishonjazz]

They nullify his rim protection.

When Gobert has to leave the rim to defend at the perimeter, which he will always have to do when there are 5 competent shooters on the floor, he's not there to protect the rim.

I'm not going to keep going in circles over this.

I think what he is saying is so what if it nullifies his rim protection.
If everyone defends the perimeter well enough and keeps their man out of the paint and gets steals in the passing lanes then his rim protection isn't needed.

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[MT Steve]

I think what he is saying is so what if it nullifies his rim protection.
If everyone defends the perimeter well enough and keeps their man out of the paint and gets steals in the passing lanes then his rim protection isn't needed.

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I know what he's saying.

What I'm saying is the reason he is worth the money is BECAUSE of his elite rim protection. If his rim protection isn't needed, great. That also makes him not worth what we're paying him.

 

[Ferguson_Mellochill]

They nullify his rim protection.

When Gobert has to leave the rim to defend at the perimeter, which he will always have to do when there are 5 competent shooters on the floor, he's not there to protect the rim.

I'm not going to keep going in circles over this.

Then the solution is to add at least a second player who can help defend the rim, not to get rid of the first. Add a player like Jerami Grant who can play help defense and stop relying on Gobert alone.

The Jazz have gotten so accustomed to having only one guy who can defend in the paint.

 

[fishonjazz]

I know what he's saying.

What I'm saying is the reason he is worth the money is BECAUSE of his elite rim protection. If his rim protection isn't needed, great. That also makes him not worth what we're paying him.

not needing his rim protection in one series doesn't mean we dont need his rim protection ever though right?
Was his rim protection valuable in round 1? Was it valuable in getting into the playoffs as a favorable seed?

 

[MT Steve]

not needing his rim protection in one series doesn't mean we dont need his rim protection ever though right?
Was his rim protection valuable in round 1? Was it valuable in getting into the playoffs as a favorable seed?

Of course it was. Problem is the league isn't getting any farther away from smallball. Realistically, we won't have a playoff path that doesn't involve at least one or two very good teams that can go small.

I don't have a solution - just pointing out the difficulty.

 

[Ferguson_Mellochill]

Of course it was. Problem is the league isn't getting any farther away from smallball. Realistically, we won't have a playoff path that doesn't involve at least one or two very good teams that can go small.

I don't have a solution - just pointing out the difficulty.

Gobert did his job in the Clippers series. Mike Conley, Joe Ingles, Jordan Clarkson, Georges Niang and other guys who couldn't keep up defensively were the problem.

 

[MT Steve]

Gobert did his job in the Clippers series. Mike Conley, Joe Ingles, Jordan Clarkson, Georges Niang and other guys who couldn't keep up defensively were the problem.

Why should I continue this if you're not even going to read my posts?

I literally cannot make my point any clearer. I'm not going to keep trying to reword it to help you out if you're hellbent on not understanding it.

Bash this point into your skull until it sticks: I am not blaming Gobert.

 

[fishonjazz]

Of course it was. Problem is the league isn't getting any farther away from smallball. Realistically, we won't have a playoff path that doesn't involve at least one or two very good teams that can go small.

I don't have a solution - just pointing out the difficulty.

Something like memphis (or Portland) in the first round, suns in the second round, lakers in the third round, 76ers or bucks in the finals. Rudy could be regular season rudy vs all those teams.
I agree that there are some teams that will go small though too. Jazz should figure out a gameplan for when that happens rather than continuing with the same gameplan that they use against traditional offenses imo.

Still a lot of teams that don't want to play small ball. Jazz need to figure out what to do against those teams that do go small. And they should probably figure that out in the regular season before the playoffs arrive.

 

[LoPo]

Something like memphis (or Portland) in the first round, suns in the second round, lakers in the third round, 76ers or bucks in the finals. Rudy could be regular season rudy vs all those teams.
I agree that there are some teams that will go small though too. Jazz should figure out a gameplan for when that happens rather than continuing with the same gameplan that they use against traditional offenses imo.

Still a lot of teams that don't want to play small ball. Jazz need to figure out what to do against those teams that do go small. And they should probably figure that out in the regular season before the playoffs arrive.

Very good post. Very true about certain teams being good matchups. I will say that every finals winning team since Duncan has gone small for a big portion of their success, but most of the time getting to the Finals involves playing mainly teams that play big some of the time.

We have to find a small ball center. Simply have to. Mind boggling that we are paying over $45 million for Rudy and Favors next year. What are we, in 1988?

 

[LoPo]

Big Take on Rudy.... I just don't think the rest of the league likes Rudy or even respects him. They probably just see him as a cheat code for just standing under the bucket to swat the easy shots. Since they don't respect him, they go right at him. In the playoffs, they relish the chance to put him on an island and punish him. It's an extra challenge in addition to beating the team. It's not like Draymond where you hate the guy, but you respect him. I don't think other NBA players like Rudy or even respect him. His tantrums, complaining to the refs, and flopping only exacerbates the situation. So in turn, most of the league doesn't like or respect Utah since he is so much of our identity.

I think if the franchise was run with DWade very visible and built around Don, we would get more respect. It's not that we need league street cred, but it would help to sign those minimum contract vets that seem to eat us alive each postseason. I bet Don is constantly defending his teammate when hanging out with other NBA players. And I bet he's tired of doing it because he knows that Rudy is a bit of a diva, does too much flopping, is so limited offensively, etc.

 

[Ferguson_Mellochill]

This is JT Thor from Auburn. We might be able to draft him. Move Royce to the 2-guard and play a guy like this at the 4 next to Rudy. Size, toughness and defense would be solved.

 

[416Klawzz]

He is one dimensional, he only has the range of a dunk, we need to trade him for assets and that stupid *** contract.

 

[Mikle12]

Rudy has the third highest guaranteed contract behind lillard and Giannis no way he is 3rd best player in nba we got stooged on his contract