si article "Can Millsap play SF?"

[//r00t 4 Jazz]

Hmmm that reminds me I think it was YB & Pearl that compared Millsap to Harp.... but not in the good way.

 

[InGameStrategy]

So you restate several times that he has not shown improvement on defense, and when I ask you to prove it, you say that your evidence is "based on viewing evidence", because you have no facts to prove it.

Weren't you the one who stated that he did improve? I was merely disagreeing with you (because it's what I believe). Do you really have any "evidence" toward his defensive improvement? Even if he has improved, it isn't enough to be a legit center. Amare Stoudemire can show you how many rings a good-scoring center without convincing defense can garner you.

Let's look at blocks (given that Rp30 went down from last season vs. the previous one): they are up to 1.6 per 30 from 1.2 per 30. Blocks is an imperfect measure of defense, but if that's your basis for him improving, your basis falls far short.

How about opponent's production (as per 82 games)? 18.0. OK, but not outstanding.

Perhaps the most damning is points allowed per 100 possessions: 113 when he's on the court last season and 106 when he's off, for a difference of >7. That's worse than the previous season (113 vs. 111). Obviously teammates play a factor, but that's not a pattern that supports your stance.
https://www.82games.com/1011/10UTA15.HTM
https://www.82games.com/0910/09MIN12.HTM

If you have the data on how many times he got burned on help defense, then we could compare it; I don't. Until then, my claim is now far more substantiated than your data-deficient stance.

 

[Deleted member 848]

Weren't you the one who stated that he did improve? I was merely disagreeing with you (because it's what I believe). Do you really have any "evidence" toward his defensive improvement? Even if he has improved, it isn't enough to be a legit center. Amare Stoudemire can show you how many rings a good-scoring center without convincing defense can garner you.

Let's look at blocks (given that Rp30 went down from last season vs. the previous one): they are up to 1.6 per 30 from 1.2 per 30. Blocks is an imperfect measure of defense, but if that's your basis for him improving, your basis falls far short.

How about opponent's production (as per 82 games)? 18.0. OK, but not outstanding.

Perhaps the most damning is points allowed per 100 possessions: 113 when he's on the court last season and 106 when he's off, for a difference of >7. That's worse than the previous season (113 vs. 111). Obviously teammates play a factor, but that's not a pattern that supports your stance.
https://www.82games.com/1011/10UTA15.HTM
https://www.82games.com/0910/09MIN12.HTM

If you have the data on how many times he got burned on help defense, then we could compare it; I don't. Until then, my claim is now far more substantiated than your data-deficient stance.

Alright you moran, clearly you've forgotten what this conversation was about. Lets rewind:

Care to show some evidence regarding whether Al played good D after the all-star break or not? I honestly have no idea personally, but you could be speaking out of your *** here.

So tell me: how does you giving me AlJeffs SEASON averages help you with your argument, that he didn't improve as the season progressed??


My claim now makes sense, and you just made yourself look stupid by replying a week later, and forgetting what the argument was about. Get on my level IGS

 

[InGameStrategy]

Alright you moran, clearly you've forgotten what this conversation was about. Lets rewind:

So tell me: how does you giving me AlJeffs SEASON averages help you with your argument, that he didn't improve as the season progressed??

This is for you to answer! You made the claim first. I only called B.S. on your claim--and have still provided more support--however incomplete--for my position than you have for yours.

My claim now makes sense, and you just made yourself look stupid by replying a week later, and forgetting what the argument was about. Get on my level IGS

I replied a week later because I have better things to do than to reply to your unsubstantiated claims.

A week later, I still haven't seen any basis to your unsubstantiated claim, but I haven't wasted much energy waiting for it. Feel free to do the analysis to back up your original statement. At this rate, you might not even have any support to your statement before the players come to an agreement with the NBA.

 

[Lakers_Slapper]

I simply disagree that Sloan is (or any coach) is blameless here, because Boozer himself proved occasionally that he could play some semblance of defense. Although Boozer didn't have good lateral footwork, he could've played better defense most of the time just by putting forth the effort. . But the #1 thing would've to enforce it; namely, bench a player who isn't defending. This could have been done without sacrificing wins, especially in the long run (i.e., across an entire season).

The concept that a coach isn't partially responsible for a team's subpar performance--any more than a manager isn't partially responsible for a department's subpar performance--is puzzling. To do so, you have to prove that the coach did everything reasonable that he could to maximize the team's effort and skill. Only then can you put it on the players for falling short. Not surprisingly, I flatly disagree that Sloan did do all he could--which was poetic irony, given that he was known during his playing career as a tough-nosed defender (and during most of his coaching career as a tough-nosed coach).

Nobody's asking for "defense first." And the fact that Thibodeau was willing to bench Boozer is exactly the strategy that I am recommending for the Jazz. You simply don't keep a player on the court if his defense is being a net liability at a given moment. If he continues to refuse to play defense (or not to be able to be better defense, which I do not think is the case with Boozer or Jefferson), then you evaluate their value against other options. Despite Boozer's scoring prowess, there were times that he was better to be off the floor. Evidently Thibodeau thought the same, even though he probably wasn't successful (yet) in making Boozer a passable defender.

Same goes for Jefferson--especially now, where last year the alternatives might have been better, it's gonna be even more likely this year and next as Kanter and Favors continue to improve that his minutes should not be taken for granted.

To do so, you have to prove that the coach did everything reasonable that he could to maximize the team's effort and skill. Only then can you put it on the players for falling short Well, Coach Sloan has nothing to prove, as he did everything and then some to maximize the teams efforts for over 23 years.
And I bet you dollars to doughnuts that better footwork wasn't even suggested in practice, much less implemented; and I'd be interested to know how much time they even spent on team defense <------- Is this a joke??? How old are you? Did you just start watching the Jazz?? Coach Sloan was, has, and forever will be known as a guy who pushed defense. Not just by Jazz fans, but NBA enthusiasts both local and nationally. LOL, YOU MUST BE KIDDING??? Your either 12 years old or stupid! Jerry Sloan is known by anyone that has ever followed any team in basketball for more than 24 hours, as a hard nosed defensive coach. hahahaha. If you wanted to bring this argument up and have anyone listen to it, you shouldve done it in the late 70's (You may have had a shot in hell at defending yourself). My God! Whats next?? Let me guess, LIL WAYNE IS A BETTER RAPPER THAN 2PAC??? lol. You have a great future as a comedian, just pretend that your the stupidest person to walk the earth (like you did on this post) and you will have no problem!!!!

 

[InGameStrategy]

To do so, you have to prove that the coach did everything reasonable that he could to maximize the team's effort and skill. Only then can you put it on the players for falling short Well, Coach Sloan has nothing to prove, as he did everything and then some to maximize the teams efforts for over 23 years.

Unfortunately, the deficient defense of Jefferson, Boozer, Okur, and others--and Sloan's fly in your face of your claim, which you still haven't provided proof for, besides a blanket, general statement that was definitely not true during the Boozakur era, C.J. Miles' "career", and especially in Sloan's last year.

And I bet you dollars to doughnuts that better footwork wasn't even suggested in practice, much less implemented; and I'd be interested to know how much time they even spent on team defense

<------- Is this a joke??? How old are you? Did you just start watching the Jazz?? Coach Sloan was, has, and forever will be known as a guy who pushed defense. Not just by Jazz fans, but NBA enthusiasts both local and nationally. LOL, YOU MUST BE KIDDING??? Your either 12 years old or stupid! Jerry Sloan is known by anyone that has ever followed any team in basketball for more than 24 hours, as a hard nosed defensive coach. hahahaha. If you wanted to bring this argument up and have anyone listen to it, you shouldve done it in the late 70's (You may have had a shot in hell at defending yourself). My God! Whats next?? Let me guess, LIL WAYNE IS A BETTER RAPPER THAN 2PAC??? lol. You have a great future as a comedian, just pretend that your the stupidest person to walk the earth (like you did on this post) and you will have no problem!!!!

By "pushed defense," you must be referring to the post-game interviews when he occasionally grumbled about bad player defense. Unfortunately for you, talk and action are two different things. During the past six years especially, defense has been insufficiently enforced; his use of Boozer and Okur (and underuse of backup bigs who either could defend or had the potential to defend) nullifies your unsubstantiated statement. Rarely (if ever) were players benched for not effectively defending (see also an aging Raja Bell, not just the frontcourt matadors), and when solutions to at least specific defensive problems were identified (i.e., Araujo on Duncan, Fesenko on the Gasols, etc.), they were barely used. Nobody was suggesting that these backups should've been used more than maybe 10 to 20 minutes per game, but they barely saw the court and were not developed further, even when they were a superior choice in their undeveloped state.

 

[Lakers_Slapper]

Unfortuna tely, the deficient defense of Jefferson, Boozer, Okur, and others--and Sloan's fly in your face of your claim, which you still haven't provided proof for, besides a blanket, general statement that was definitely not true during the Boozakur era, C.J. Miles' "career", and especially in Sloan's last year.

By "pushed defense," you must be referring to the post-game interviews when he occasionally grumbled about bad player defense. Unfortunately for you, talk and action are two different things. During the past six years especially, defense has been insufficiently enforced; his use of Boozer and Okur (and underuse of backup bigs who either could defend or had the potential to defend) nullifies your unsubstantiated statement. Rarely (if ever) were players benched for not effectively defending (see also an aging Raja Bell, not just the frontcourt matadors), and when solutions to at least specific defensive problems were identified (i.e., Araujo on Duncan, Fesenko on the Gasols, etc.), they were barely used. Nobody was suggesting that these backups should've been used more than maybe 10 to 20 minutes per game, but they barely saw the court and were not developed further, even when they were a superior choice in their undeveloped state.

Araujo on Tim Duncan? Really? I would think that if his defensive efforts went un-noticed by the Jazz, he could have easily had his defensive strenths recognized by another team after his contract with Utah ended. If someone can defend a younger and still great Tim Duncan, guess what?? His NBA career doesnt just come to an end like that. If you can defend Tim Duncan you can defend ALMOST any big man in the NBA. Araujo couldnt get signed after the Jazz because he just wasnt NBA material and proved it with 2 in Toronto and 1 year (actually 28 games) with the Jazz. If your saying he was our savior,,,,, well,,,,, thanks for proving my point. And as far as Fesenko, I used to think he was under played as well. That was until I partied with him not once, but 3 times. And I cant see any way that this guy can chew gum and walk at the same time. Not saying spending a total of maybe 30 minutes with him gives me any idea of his playing skills, but was more than enough to learn that we had a true idiot on our hands. He was the stupidest person I had conversed with up until now. Goes to show you that not everyone who is draped in a BYU uniform during college is a future NBA superstar. Let go of Araujo his 3 year NBA career has been over for 5 years now. If he was a Stockton, Malone, or a Sloan, I could justify the bragging for him.

 

[Basketball_Romantic23]

Please dont get me wrong, I think that Hayward is going to be a descent role player, but saying that hes proven himself as a consistant shooter after his first year? I hope for the best when it comes to the Jazz, but Hayward is still young and is going to make a lot of mistakes. There's nothing wrong with that, its part of the growing pains. And what obvious advantage does Hayward have at playing starting 2? This kid has played one year, everyone is set on him being the savior of basketball in Utah. I dont get it.
And you said you dont know anything about Burks, but hes a guy that wont mess up the chemistry with the team. If you dont know anything about him, now can you boldly state he wont mess up the chemistry? (Im not saying that I do know anything about him, but Im not going to start posting his wills and wonts on Jazzfanz). And if you ask me, our team chemistry is as messed up as it maybe has ever been. We have new coaches players from a blockbuster trade, potentially good draft picks.....etc......what team chemistry?
The Jazz will hopefully pull it together and make the season work, but I dont think Hayward is our secret weapon. I hope Im wrong.

Hayward is going to be much better than you think! Serious. Did you watch the last 3 weeks of the season when he finally found his groove; go check out his Game logs for last season. it is obvious that he really started to understand what he needed to do to be successful. If you think Hayward is going to be anything less than a bona fide on the bubble allstar, then you're wring my good friend ... plus he pretty much slapped the lakers the last time we played them! you remember that don't you!?

 

[Basketball_Romantic23]

I should say a bona Fide Starter, and an on the bubble allstar!

 

[Lakers_Slapper]

Hayward is going to be much better than you think! Serious. Did you watch the last 3 weeks of the season when he finally found his groove; go check out his Game logs for last season. it is obvious that he really started to understand what he needed to do to be successful. If you think Hayward is going to be anything less than a bona fide on the bubble allstar, then you're wring my good friend ... plus he pretty much slapped the lakers the last time we played them! you remember that don't you!?

I did watch the last 3 weeks of the season, and I loved what I saw from him. But seeing a major improvment that late into the season doesnt do it for me. I admit that I didnt like him from the get go, mainly because every Jazz fan was clairifying him as a future all star right from the start. I hoped that they were right, but I dont believe in giving a player love, just because we were the ones that drafted him. I'm not going to get saucer eyed just because everyone else is. I hope he is what everyone expects him to be, but until that day comes, I remain optimistic.

 

[InGameStrategy]

Araujo on Tim Duncan? Really? I would think that if his defensive efforts went un-noticed by the Jazz, he could have easily had his defensive strenths recognized by another team after his contract with Utah ended. If someone can defend a younger and still great Tim Duncan, guess what?? His NBA career doesnt just come to an end like that. If you can defend Tim Duncan you can defend ALMOST any big man in the NBA. Araujo couldnt get signed after the Jazz because he just wasnt NBA material and proved it with 2 in Toronto and 1 year (actually 28 games) with the Jazz.

28 games is too little to prove (or disprove) a player, especially a big man; his history with Toronto does not necessarily mean that he could not have been more effective in specific roles with Utah.

My primary criticism--regarding Araujo, Fesenko, and others--is the repeated underdevelopment and underutilization of players, even bit players, who can truly help the team in specific situations. This problem is made worse by a seemingly unsophisticated approach to lineups, matchups (vs. individual and team opponents), in-game adjustments (thus the sig), etc.

Araujo's FG% was disastrous, and he physically had short arms. It's no surprise that the Jazz (and any other team) did not re-sign him. That doesn't excuse the Jazz from utilizing players for what they have unique value while they are on their first contract. Araujo had a unique success in neutralizing Duncan, and Sloan ignored it, just like he did with Fesenko.

The frequency of success stories of big-man development by the Jazz, besides self-motivated players such as Malone and MIllsap who were the primary drivers of their own success, are fairly thin, and this problem is exacerbated by the Jazz not insisting on putting forth the effort defensively (e.g., Jefferson, Boozer, and sometimes Okur).

If your saying he was our savior,,,,, well,,,,, thanks for proving my point.

Didn't prove your point, then, because I didn't say that he was our savior, although I maintain that he could've helped the Jazz win an extra playoff game or two by strategically deploying him for maybe 15 or 20 minutes to wear Duncan down. It's easy to envision a situation where Hoffa neutralizing Duncan could be more valuable than the scoring but poor defense (and help defense) from the alternative (likely Boozer, etc.) who would still play more minutes and the rest of the game (assuming that Araujo didn't demonstrate more convincing evidence of further effectiveness beyond that).

And as far as Fesenko, I used to think he was under played as well. That was until I partied with him not once, but 3 times. And I cant see any way that this guy can chew gum and walk at the same time. Not saying spending a total of maybe 30 minutes with him gives me any idea of his playing skills, but was more than enough to learn that we had a true idiot on our hands. He was the stupidest person I had conversed with up until now.

The recent NBAPA lockout negotiations have further confirmed that there is not necessarily a correlation between on-court skill and off-court smarts.

Goes to show you that not everyone who is draped in a BYU uniform during college is a future NBA superstar. Let go of Araujo his 3 year NBA career has been over for 5 years now. If he was a Stockton, Malone, or a Sloan, I could justify the bragging for him.

Not much to brag about, and it's about as relevant to me that Araujo went to BYU as that Fesenko was from the Ukraine.

 

[Lakers_Slapper]

28 games is too little to prove (or disprove) a player, especially a big man; his history with Toronto does not necessarily mean that he could not have been more effective in specific roles with Utah.

My primary criticism--regarding Araujo, Fesenko, and others--is the repeated underdevelopment and underutilization of players, even bit players, who can truly help the team in specific situations. This problem is made worse by a seemingly unsophisticated approach to lineups, matchups (vs. individual and team opponents), in-game adjustments (thus the sig), etc.

Araujo's FG% was disastrous, and he physically had short arms. It's no surprise that the Jazz (and any other team) did not re-sign him. That doesn't excuse the Jazz from utilizing players for what they have unique value while they are on their first contract. Araujo had a unique success in neutralizing Duncan, and Sloan ignored it, just like he did with Fesenko.

The frequency of success stories of big-man development by the Jazz, besides self-motivated players such as Malone and MIllsap who were the primary drivers of their own success, are fairly thin, and this problem is exacerbated by the Jazz not insisting on putting forth the effort defensively (e.g., Jefferson, Boozer, and sometimes Okur).

Didn't prove your point, then, because I didn't say that he was our savior, although I maintain that he could've helped the Jazz win an extra playoff game or two by strategically deploying him for maybe 15 or 20 minutes to wear Duncan down. It's easy to envision a situation where Hoffa neutralizing Duncan could be more valuable than the scoring but poor defense (and help defense) from the alternative (likely Boozer, etc.) who would still play more minutes and the rest of the game (assuming that Araujo didn't demonstrate more convincing evidence of further effectiveness beyond that).

The recent NBAPA lockout negotiations have further confirmed that there is not necessarily a correlation between on-court skill and off-court smarts.

Not much to brag about, and it's about as relevant to me that Araujo went to BYU as that Fesenko was from the Ukraine.

Oh well, excuse me because the NBAPA have confirmed that there is not necessarily a "correlation" (a measure of the degree of linear relationship between two variables) between on-court skill and off-court smarts. But I disagree. For example, If a player is seen off court acting like an idiot, by multiple people, multiple times, hes not going to show up to practice as an Albert Einstein. And the NBAPA is the organazation that just turned down a 50/50 offer with guaranteed contracts, arent they? So I wouldnt exactly say that their word is gold anyway.

The next thing that proves my point is......... WHERE IS ARAUJO?? WHO SIGNED HIM? HOW WELL DID HE DO? FORGIVE ME I HAVENT HEARD! Like Jerry is going to let a Superstar go by under his sights, and secondly, ANOTHER TEAM WOULDVE PICKED HIM UP, BECAUSE HE WOULD'VE TRIED OUT FOR THEM. Jump off the Araujo johnson, and quit protesting your statue for him by Stockton and Malone. GO AWAY